Registered: Aug 2000
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Pros at Being Cons «

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: canadian rockies
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Wow.

I'm a pretty sheltered spoiled white brat too. A part of me does want to blame Jason, I mean no one put the pipe in his hand. Perhaps that's the part that just has never been exposed to this shit.

That story leads me to more questions than answers. I'm not sure how it makes me feel. A little sad a little angry I guess.
Mostly sad I think.


thanks paint.




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Happiness is a moveable feast.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
Posts: 2115

Paint, I will keep saying this until you wake up and listen, but what the fuck are you doing here? (no offense everyone) Your writing talent amazes me still. You and bunkum both have this way of letting things flow so smoothly, I'm in awe everytime.

You Suck!!

CAL

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"The desert is my church, and hunting is my god."

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: canadian rockies
Posts: 1527

quote:

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Originally posted by CAL:
Paint, I will keep saying this until you wake up and listen, but what the fuck are you doing here? (no offense everyone) Your writing talent amazes me still. You and bunkum both have this way of letting things flow so smoothly, I'm in awe everytime.

You Suck!!

CAL

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Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Gehenna
Posts: 1018

Jesus, Paint. We all have to live with the consequences of our actions, but that was way too fucking much. How many times does a man have to pay a debt before he can get a fair shot?

Changes need to be made. But no one cares.

Thanks for sharing that with us. It is saddening but it's also meaningful.

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What you would kill to see brings out the GOD in me.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2225

First, that was a lovely piece Mr. CHiPs.

Thank you.

But:

Enough of this masturbatory gratitude! The suppository ought to have substance, and critiquing the abilities of its various contributors should spark some life or worth into it:

I wouldn't quite yet agree with CAL, although if you keep this up I'm sure you'll nail it soon. You've got a specific style, although I'd say the rhythm of your pieces (not all of them) could use some spontaneity. The words don’t yet feel intuitive enough, like the meaning of your chosen language isn’t quite being requited with your memory of these events. You obviously feel something for these events, and too often you attempt to spell it out rather than trust your audience enough to feel it out.

Try reading some Haiku or some various zen poetry before writing. The rigidity in both of these poetic forms can be quite beneficial, as the rhythm is apparent and easy to emulate. Also, the ideas are typically presented in a concise, albeit esoteric, manner. I describe Japanese and Chinese poetry like this: few words that share the images of an experience with those that have had it already, but leave interested those that have not.

Your pieces should stay their length; however, try altering the “flowfeel” of your sentences without loosing your style and voice.

If I’ve been totally esoteric, or have over stepped myself by giving these suggestions, than tell me. I’ll amend them if it is the former, and revoke them if it is the latter.

Cheers, and thanks for the read.

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Feral Automaton:

Enough of this masturbatory gratitude! The suppository ought to have substance, and critiquing the abilities of its various contributors should spark some life or worth into it:

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Los Angeles, Ca
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We all have our different tastes, I for one enjoy a good read; one that I don't have to do anything but let the writer tell me a story as if I'm sitting on his front porch watching him rock in a chair. That type of writing is more popular than any others. People tend to use books as a reason to get away, to drift from one life to another.

I personally know a couple of published writers and I can say that when we discuss storytelling in it's clearest form, you've got it pretty damn close, Paint. When you start submitting and get feedback from editors and the general public, you'll grow. If you hadn't learned to do that already, I doubt you would be as good as you are today...

CAL



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"The desert is my church, and hunting is my god."

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
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quote:

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Originally posted by Paint CHiPs:
(I have been told quite a bit that I use "basically" more then any other word, including "the").

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Location: Oregon. America.
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“Basically, I write like I speak, and hence I get a lot of comments about the conversational tone of some of my stuff.” – Mr. CHiPs.

You do write as if the piece is an oration, and that is a fine style. However, the length of your pieces begins to wear out the “listener” and makes them want to respond, just like in any conversation. It is always difficult to listen to someone speak for a long time unless they create “pit stops” along the way.

These “pit stops” don’t have to be overt either (ie, not just jokes, overtly shocking statements, or other obvious attention devices). Which brings me to:

“What? What do you mean by flowfeel and what can I do to improve it? (and what is wrong with it and why for that matter). These are things I don't understand well. I am very much a common man sort of literary guy, despite my education.” – Mr. CHiPs.

Flowfeel. The word, which I just made up, sounded “right” when I was writing the criticism. I was hoping that it would somehow convey my idea of creating an endless “pit stop,” which I will attempt to better describe now, hopefully sans my esoteric phrasing.

It has something to do with rhythm, and something to do with word choice. The rhythm is the flow of the piece. Do the words that form the sentences that form the paragraphs that comprise the entire piece capture your entire concept, or do they need to be physically divided and aligned differently in order to please you aesthetically, to please you personally?

Like notes in a song, does one chord fit into the next well, or should there be another little something, perhaps just a single note, or maybe even an entire chorus, between these two chords?

I got this idea in a graphics design course that I was taking. We were discussing text and how it looks to a customer on a page. I took it to also mean does the text in relation to your idea convey your message clearly and, even further, can the alignment and syntax of your expression lend to its clarity?

That’s the rhythm.

The word choice (BTW, thank you for realizing that this is what I meant when I completely failed to say it myself). The word choice should be conversational, which you have no problem with. However, I don’t think that, for the ideas and stories that you want to tell, you have a personal vernacular that does your concepts enough justice. Your “common” sense of language (as defined entirely by yourself) isn’t quite expressive enough to paint the images that you want us to see.

In a way, by saying too much, it still feels as if you’re hiding something from us, not too much, but enough to be missed by some readers.

Leading us to:

“I tend to go for money shots. I don't trust the reader enough.” – Mr. CHiPs.

“Money shots” can be deceptive. Whereas you may have gripped an audience member in a very specific way by giving them an obvious and overt image to emotionally respond to, it doesn’t quite satisfy the actual expression, the exact memory that exists in your mind.

Try giving us your poetic/esoteric description of an event, as coupled with your standard format. Load your piece with emotional words that detail these events that express these events so that an audience is gripped perpetually and a “pit stop” is unnecessary because the flowfeel is constant.

“I am very much a common man sort of literary guy, despite my education.” –Mr. CHiPs.

So am I. Anything that I say to you may or may not stand up to an actual academic appraisal. All of my advice I pull straight from my own personal experiences with writing, and should be considered with a great deal of skepticism.

I don’t write like other people because I’ve never been trained to write. I don’t follow all set syntactical rules anymore because nobody is around to bitch and fail me for nonconformity. I know them, just as I understand language, however art is all about breaking and fucking with conventions. Adapting rules and ideas to better fit us. It is not a caste that we fit into; rather, it is a caste that encompasses us and is malleable to our dreams.

.Shit. Sorry about my little rant. I’ve gotta burn that soapbox .

“Oh, and thanks for the criticism.” – Mr. CHiPs.

No problem. Some substance, aside from the user updates, may make the suppository worth visiting.

And,

I’m sure that you know this, although I’ll extend the invitation anyway: you’re cordially invited to cut my pieces and style to shit as well. I’m learning, and criticism is a wonderful means of humbly educating my ability. I trust your opinion and your aesthetic, and I would consider it a great favor if you would help me out.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
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Shit. I'd offer criticism too, but Paint's writing talent is so far beyond mine it's not funny. Therefore, all I have to offer is simple praise. Wish I could do more. Offer up a painting or 3d artwork of some sort, and perhaps I could come up with some criticism. In that particular arena, I'm not trained, but I'm practiced.

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All persons, living and dead, are purely coincidental. -- Kurt Vonnegut
Graphic Cheeseworks.

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Feral, what you're talking about with "flowfeel" can be ammended quite easily, with a few simple edits. Perhaps exposure to different styles would help make some of this work come subconsciously, but the process cannot actually change until it becomes conscious. The main problem I see here:

--"is" or "was", as in "It was a grand day." could be ammended to "We stepped off the front porch to see a grand day ahead of us." ok, so maybe not that exactly, but "is" and "was" verb clauses tend to slow down a reader

--cluttered verb clauses (not the precise term) as in "we definitely leap boldly into various situations." too many adverbs, where a stronger verb choice would be more suitable, more pivotal in meaning.

What you're saying makes sense, to a degree Feral.

Here is where we disagree:

The words don’t yet feel intuitive enough, like the meaning of your chosen language isn’t quite being requited with your memory of these events. You obviously feel something for these events, and too often you attempt to spell it out rather than trust your audience enough to feel it out.

Some of the reasons I disagree have already been stated; the cluttering/slowing down of verb phrases will have this effect on a reader. But somebody who spells it out, while avoiding the obvious, is making meaning, translating experience for a reader. You talk about the connection between memory and language, then state that the audience could feel these things out, rather than having them spelled out. Maybe I'm being reductive, but I see a contradition here to a degree.

Then again, I don't know where you stand on writing, Feral. Is it solely for the artist, or is it a connection between artist/audience?



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Deny closure. Honor ambiguity.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
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“You talk about the connection between memory and language, then state that the audience could feel these things out, rather than having them spelled out. Maybe I'm being reductive, but I see a contradition here to a degree.” – Bunkum.

Sorry about that. Let me explain again, using your two models:

Memory and language will always have a translation gap. A memory is not a series of words, it is a collection of images, and just as any concept is difficult to express, every memory is bastardized by our verbal expression of it. Poetry is a wonderful way of isolating this gap to a degree, as poetry is often a series of words that express a series of images. Essays, narratives, expository, etc. often use language clumsily, trying to express a concept using too many descriptors.

A memory is like a photograph. It appears in an instant, and then becomes petrified in your mind. When you write about a memory, you want to create these “photographs” of these memories in an instant (ie, few words) and allow them to marinate in the readers mind for a while.

It is important for the author to be as accurate as they can when expressing their emotions, and the word choice is important. Although, so is the rhythm of the piece. For instance, have you just given an image to an audience? If so, how much time between images is necessary in order to let them “digest” properly?

Like force-feeding someone. You give them a bite, and it’s no fun to push another load in, as you’ll choke them and kill them and than they won’t be able to play with you anymore. If you feed someone too much than they’ll get confused by the piece and settle for only a few images, whereas if the author had correctly established a rhythm, than the images would be spaced to be felt for maximum affect.

“Then again, I don't know where you stand on writing, Feral. Is it solely for the artist, or is it a connection between artist/audience?” – Bunkum.

It’s for the artist. It’s a masturbatory thing. Writing is for the writer; to claim that it is for the audience is absurd. It is a personal vehicle and medium, like any art, that allows an individual consciousness to express itself.

Mostly.

But,

The rest is something I won’t share, for personal reasons.

Anyway. Fuck. I shouldn’t have gotten into this. I’m no academician, I’m a lousy student and I know shit all about English.

Sorry.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Feral Automaton:


Anyway. Fuck. I shouldn’t have gotten into this. I’m no academician, I’m a lousy student and I know shit all about English.

Sorry.

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Feral!! You know plenty about English, about writing, and about language. Otherwise, I wouldn't tempt you into dialogue. I should make this really clear now; any sort of position or experience I hold does not make any view I hold necessarily right. Additionally, your response clarified any previous difficulties I had had with what you were saying. We come from two different schools of thought about writing, so now that we know that, what we say to each other about writing will make more sense. While there's a lot I write only for myself, practically in code half the time, what I inflict upon others is more for a connection.

There are people on this board who've never been to college, and still write. They do so extremely well, and their fascination with language shows. I'm a mediocre writer in comparison to most in here; I've been challenged, questioned, and engaged by other people who write and enjoy language.

This dialoguing is what it's all about.

If you apologize again, I'll throw a marsupial at you.

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Deny closure. Honor ambiguity.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Boston, MA USA
Posts: 337

Paint, I will concur with the rest, you are a talented writer. I'm sure its just a matter oftime before you find yourself doing bigger and better things.

As for the message of your story. I couldn't agree with you less. Because your friend is/was sorry then he should be forgiven? I'm sorry, that doesn't flush here. He has nobody to blame for his problems but himself.

Yeah he did 8 years in prison, big deal. How many times in those 8 years do you think the people who he robbed at gunpoint got a good night's sleep? How many people no longer felt safe in their own homes because of him?

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Myrtle Beach, SC
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Not because he was sorry. Because he paid the debt society demanded of him. He was arrested, tried, and convicted. He was sentenced to do his time in prison. He carried out that sentence, so he should have a clean slate. Unfortunately, that's not how things work, and that's the point Paint's trying to get across. It's paramount to paying twice for the same crime. He did his jail time, was released, and then he has to turn around and still be unable to support himself? No wonder our prison system generates so many repeat offenders. We complain about people returning to crime as soon as we let them out of prison, but we don't give them a chance to go straight. Everyone's so convinced that an ex-con will continue to break the law that they can't get a job, so they really have no other choice if they want to survive. It's a self-fulfilling prophesy.

I don't say all should be forgiven, but these people should at least be offered the opportunity to get on the right track. They paid their debt to society, let them move on with their lives.

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I could never take any computer seriously that doesnt give me blue screens and illegal ops now and again. --Urbanjunkie
Graphic Cheeseworks.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Boston, MA USA
Posts: 337

He's a highschool dropout, cracker with a felony on his rap sheet and says he is sorry (he's sorry he got caught). What has he ever done to earn trust from anyone? He's sorry (allegedly) shit, lets make him bank manager. Too bad, let him start at the bottom and work his way up. Someone needs to do day labor, why shouldn't he? The pay sucks, tell me another sob story. Everyone thinks that they should be paid more, everybody.

Doing time in prison is not repaying any debt to society, its getting them out of our hair for as long as we can.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
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Hey Paint-

Nice column. I think I agree that it is sad that Jason was a person who wanted to turn over another leaf but was unable too. I have a friend who got busted selling LSD tabs in college (a friend's cousin narced him off as part of a snitch program). My friend is a good person, but he has a felony drug charge on his record. He can't go to Canada and he has no defense against search and seizure by the fuzz. He can verbally protest, but if the cops ignore him, they can't get in trouble, even if they don't have probable cause. Having a felony conviction is probably cause enough. So I agree that there are problems with the way society treats criminals.

This brushes up against a larger ethical issue: rehabilitation versus punishment. Modern society as a whole shortsightedly focuses on punishment while giving lip service to rehabilitation. Americans want to think that people should pay their debt and then resume fulfilling responsible lives, but then they refuse to accept people with records. High recidivism rates are seen as an excuse to avoid hiring convicts instead of a result of people refusing to integrate convicts once they leave the pen.

I think Jason's story is important for others to notice for other reasons too. Fair or not, the world he lived in was the real world. Sometimes you really only get one chance, and if you fuck that up, you live in hell forever. Kids really need to know that, especially when we flirt with recreational drugs. It is easy enough to for teen hubris to catalyze the worst aspects of drug use, destroying young lives before they had a chance.

I feel for Jason and I hope that he was able to find a place to turn over the proverbial leaf. I also hope that others can make the right decisions early enough to avoid falling into the same ditch as he.

As for writing styles: No one said it with these words yet, but one concept floating around is this: Avoid passive and "be" verbs. This is good advice for both academic and general writing. Don't say "He is a student." Say "He hates high school" or "He studies at Bumfuck Community College." "Be" verbs are useful descriptors, but horrible for engaging your readers.

Passive is the worst. It is easy to write and takes up words, which is a habit many of us pick up as lazy freshman. Do not say "My bike was stolen from me" but "Someone stole my bike." Using active voice gives writing life.

These general rules aren't commandments, but guidelines. Sometimes they are unavoidable or appropriate. Just a recommendation.

Also, you mention that most of your writing in writen in one sitting. This is cool in one way, but I think that you need to learn to revise to really move on to the next level. Revising demands that you know what you want to achieve and lets you actively shape the writing to do so. First draft writing like you do now is good for Gestault/ conversational effects, but I don't think you can really improve this too much without revision. Plus, the more you revise, the better your first drafts will be.

One thing beware of: don't revise while writing the first draft. I find my writing sometimes bogs down because I try to organize and write final copy when I should be just getting everything out on paper.

I sympathize with you regarding the lack of trust with the reader. I am horrible mistrustful of my ability to communicate with writing, thus I tend to kill it with description. Hopefully I may get a chance to air some of my writing in a public place like this. I think it is great that we are able to critique (which really means help) each other out.

Good to be back, Paint.

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Boomer Bible: Find it, Read it, Learn it, Live it, Love it. I mean this!

http://www.boomerbible.com/BBFAC.html

All hail Eris! All hail Discordia!

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Feral Automaton:
Flowfeel. The word, which I just made up, sounded “right” when I was writing the criticism. I was hoping that it would somehow convey my idea of creating an endless “pit stop,” which I will attempt to better describe now, hopefully sans my esoteric phrasing.

It has something to do with rhythm, and something to do with word choice. The rhythm is the flow of the piece. Do the words that form the sentences that form the paragraphs that comprise the entire piece capture your entire concept, or do they need to be physically divided and aligned differently in order to please you aesthetically, to please you personally?

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