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bad-moj0
abbazaba u my only friend
Registered: Sep 2001
Location: greta white north
Posts: 531 |
 what defines real?
i don't even trust people i interact with in person, why would i trust you? it's so much easier to tell if it's true or not when you actually hear it come out of the person's mouth...
trust and respect...
see, hear, taste, smell and touch... that's what defines real... can you feel the pressence of truth?
this barely makes sense to me... 
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09-10-2001 01:46 AM |
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Mudflap
I.R. Jailer
Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Smith County
Posts: 1366 |
Mute, you are right to keep your guard up, but don't discount everything everyone tells you via forums. Use your best judgement. There are, after all, varying degrees of trust.
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09-10-2001 02:03 AM |
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Mr Snrub
Machine Gun Joe Viterbo
Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney, Straya mate
Posts: 346 |
Tafikate Buddha, the father buddha, said:
"With our thoughts we make the world."
the REAL question: define what you mean by reality.
Is reality pure mathematical truths? See physics for your answer.
Is reality impermeable only when it physically affects the human mind, with the rest of reality defined by the perceptions of said mind(s)?
In the end, i think the only real answer is:
Don't bother trying to define it. In the end, you react to the things that affect you, and only the things that affect you are what matters.
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or any information with respect to the activities thereof, or any of the names,
titles, salaries, or the number of the persons employed by such agency."
--- Section 6 of Public Law 86-36 (1959).
The only law ever passed pertaining to the National Security Agency, or NSA.
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09-10-2001 02:29 AM |
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35783 |
Mr. Snrub is right.
'Real' is a word we hang on some things and not on others. Plato thought that the 'real' (in one sense of the word, that of the underlying truth, or archtype/universal) things had an independent existence in the world of forms. In another sense, the 'real' (in the sense of actual, sensible, objects) things were the imperfect reflections of the forms that we see in our world.
It is a weasel word like 'meaning', 'truth' and 'knowledge'. Disagreements about the ascription of these are often about definition of the word, at root, and not about the logic of the argument.
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I want to live and I want to love
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09-10-2001 11:11 AM |
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Destination
Fear the living
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: destination - ????????
Posts: 43 |
insane on the membane. Thats all that this line of thought leads to, if taken down a long way.Reality is to you as you make it (seing either the objective or the subjective through the personal subjective lens, making the former subjective and the latter more so) leaving you only with what you have. You need a truth, something only provided by philosophy or religeon, that gives you an idea, a way of thinking, that allows you to see reality as it really is. Personally, mine is Protestant Christianity, but thats mine. I believe its the truth, and through the truths proclaimed in Scripture, I can focus my view on the world, on 'reality'. What's yours?
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TotalAnarchy.................................................... is back
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09-10-2001 01:05 PM |
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35783 |
If I had to pick a 'reality', I'll have physics.
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09-10-2001 01:07 PM |
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Destination
Fear the living
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: destination - ????????
Posts: 43 |
Physics only really gives you what - cause and effect type stuff. It doesn't really give you why - why we are here, etc, and can't answer deep powered questions - do we have a coscienceness, do we have a soul, what is death, what happens afterwards.
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TotalAnarchy.................................................... is back
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09-10-2001 01:13 PM |
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35783 |
quote:
Originally posted by Destination
Physics only really gives you what - cause and effect type stuff. It doesn't really give you why - why we are here, etc, and can't answer deep powered questions - do we have a coscienceness, do we have a soul, what is death, what happens afterwards.
Absolutely true. I am unconvinced that those are 'knowable' questions. Physics will answer some questions about consciousness if you are clear about what is meant by 'consciousness'.
I believe that all physics is, is the exercise of our mental faculties. I don't deny the interest of those questions you mention, I just don't think that they are answerable in any rigourous way whatever. I am a believing catholic but I reject their dogma that aspects of divinity and of the mysteries are accessible by natural reason. God said 'here are the rules, love me and obey me', he didn't say 'here are the rules, love me, obey me and try to understand me'. I think it is an arrogance to assume that we access meaning from our thoughts, either through physics or otherwise (although I would contend in any event that there is no 'otherwise' that we can meaningfully discuss). If a physicist is honest, they will say that our successes are only making predictions which work (match the future observations), there is no epistemological content to it.
We are all doing 'physics' of sorts, it's just that some of it is done with hard maths that most people can't follow. Logic is equivalent to maths though, but it's not so good for framing some of teh more complicated ideas and also for making quantitative predictions.
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09-10-2001 01:36 PM |
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bad-moj0
abbazaba u my only friend
Registered: Sep 2001
Location: greta white north
Posts: 531 |
it all leads to blah booo beek wha?
you'll never find a straight answer, but it's fun to just ramble on sometimes, cause you might just actually find it one of these days..
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09-10-2001 06:19 PM |
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theMAC
Fluffy Bunny
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: East Texas
Posts: 367 |
What the hell happened to Snrub?
He must have finished his doctorate in existential taoist ethnophilosophy or sumthin.....
I always sorta figured he was a taoist,...but I never had any proof.
Mute, you just keep lookin for reality and it'll keep lookin for you...
like when you get seperated from your friends at the store.
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09-10-2001 06:42 PM |
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Cruise Director
nobody special
Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Zion
Posts: 4550 |
reality:
A man is only called crazy for dancing by those who can't hear the music.
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09-10-2001 06:45 PM |
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squee
the amen break
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4741 |
I think reality is more than just empirical science...I mean, I've posted this before but I think the problem with empiricism in general (ie, relying on just your 5 somatic senses) is that you get who, what, and where...but nothing more. You need to exercise your brain to get HOW and WHY. And even more to get WHY NOT.
Scientists look for WHY...
Poets look for WHY NOT...
Both being very important, I think...
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What shows the shuttered window but all the evil you can imagine?
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09-13-2001 03:10 AM |
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Mr Snrub
Machine Gun Joe Viterbo
Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney, Straya mate
Posts: 346 |
quote:
Originally posted by squee
I think reality is more than just empirical science...I mean, I've posted this before but I think the problem with empiricism in general (ie, relying on just your 5 somatic senses) is that you get who, what, and where...but nothing more. You need to exercise your brain to get HOW and WHY. And even more to get WHY NOT.
Scientists look for WHY...
Poets look for WHY NOT...
Both being very important, I think...
Science does not claim to completely understand the nature of reality. Most of science operates on theories.... science accepts that there are things that are not presently known that may prove it wrong.
The problem that a lot of religion is facing now is that much which it taught to be truth has been disproved by science.
Life is learning, and the belief that you can be certain is the ultimate hubris. Unfortunately, noone can go through life in any effective manner without falling victim to this hubris every once in a while. It is a balancing act.
And I thought I was being Zen, dammit.
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the disclosure of the organization or any function of the National Security Agency,
or any information with respect to the activities thereof, or any of the names,
titles, salaries, or the number of the persons employed by such agency."
--- Section 6 of Public Law 86-36 (1959).
The only law ever passed pertaining to the National Security Agency, or NSA.
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09-13-2001 03:54 AM |
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bunkum
Sanditon
Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501 |
Oh for God's sake...
/shoots self
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09-22-2001 05:03 PM |
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A.D.H.D
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Van Diemen's Land.
Posts: 3607 |
quote:
Originally posted by bunkum
Oh for God's sake...
/shoots self
hahahaha
I love you bunkum.
But how will you know it's real?
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09-22-2001 05:21 PM |
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bunkum
Sanditon
Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501 |
Oh, I know it's real.
ADHD, I love you too. 
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"Good God! What kind of hallucinogen leaves you high enough to be blissfully unaware of a genital amputation but lucid enough to grease up a pan and cook up a wiener? "
--pervscan.com
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09-22-2001 05:26 PM |
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bad-moj0
abbazaba u my only friend
Registered: Sep 2001
Location: greta white north
Posts: 531 |
*throws a peach pie at A.D.H.D.*
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09-23-2001 10:51 PM |
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Feral Automaton
ferret kid!
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2084 |
snuff...
Trust has more to do with ourselves than it has to do with others.
And,
Reality...
Funny deal we have being human beings... A species who's special little trait is a curiousity, an awareness, the ability to concieve of a question is also it's biggest flaw since our universe is without any absolute answers.
I've found that it's best to just allow inside all that we see, that way we'll have lived our chosen life AND the one presented to us.
Reality might be objective, although we're a purely subjective species. My guess is that, just as we cannot understand the fourth dimension since we live in the third, we could not understand objectivity since we exist creatively. We'll always see option regardless of the reality - so who needs it?
"Pi" by Daron Aronofski made this point or one very similiar IMO.
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09-24-2001 03:27 AM |
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid
Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16824 |
What defines real?
Anything that takes up space.
In your hand or in your head.
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09-27-2001 07:50 PM |
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squee
the amen break
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4741 |
quote:
Life is learning, and the belief that you can be certain is the ultimate hubris. Unfortunately, noone can go through life in any effective manner without falling victim to this hubris every once in a while. It is a balancing act.
You want to discuss hubris? Alright, let's. I am an absolutist, meaning I believe that while some experiences are relative, there are some (for example, morality) that are absolute and unchanging. This means I am subordinate to a higher power (which is true, because I'm Catholic). In this, I humble myself.
It is the gnostic relativist (like Buddhists), saying that "Reality is as you choose to define it," who are arrogant. They say things like "Nothing is good or evil, but thinking makes it so." They elevate themselves to the level of God by believing that they, and ONLY they, can define what Is. THAT is hubris.
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What does polite society know of the secret hearts of men?
What shows the shuttered window but all the evil you can imagine?
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09-27-2001 09:01 PM |
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buddha's penis
mourning wood
Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355 |
how is it arrogant to not claim knowledge? to insist that you don't know? buddhist philosophy doesn't say "only i and my reality are real and important", as far as i understand it. the They you refer to is Everybody.
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09-27-2001 09:20 PM |
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid
Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16824 |
quote:
Originally posted by Buddha's Penis!
how is it arrogant to not claim knowledge? to insist that you don't know? buddhist philosophy doesn't say "only i and my reality are real and important", as far as i understand it. the They you refer to is Everybody.
I would agree its kind of arrogant to think we all deserve to define everything as we see fit. I agree with squee for the most part, but not because of any god but mostly because we are social animals living in a society and everyone should have the same rights and things like murder rape molestation hurt others and are harmful to the society.
I don’t see how anyone could think that something like rape (for instance) is up for interpretation, or at least an interpretation that is reasonable or logical.
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09-27-2001 09:32 PM |
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squee
the amen break
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4741 |
Claiming you don't know is not arrogant at all--in fact, just because I believe in absolutes doesn't mean I claim to know them all. Claiming at ONLY YOU can define reality is arrogant. Buddhists deny that reality exists--that's gnosticism.
Euphorbia, I don't ask you to believe in God, but you can't base your absolutes on relativism...ie, you are essentially saying that rape is bad because it feels bad, rather than "Rape is bad because it is Evil." The rapist will just say "Well, it felt good to me, so you can't prosecute me." This is the result of relativism.
If you don't believe me, look at Stalin. He justified pretty much everything he did with relativist thought...
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What does polite society know of the secret hearts of men?
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09-27-2001 09:52 PM |
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