Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 13064

http://www.cnsnews.com/ViewPentagon...N20011017a.html

'Another Army public affairs spokesperson, who asked to not be identified, said, "Anybody who has ever joined the military at least ought to have it in the back of the mind that at all times we could go to war, that there's never a guaranteed peace."'

"Active Duty 'Conscientious Objectors' On The Rise" says the article. "Oh, we joined to learn a trade, not fight - the recruiters mislead us!" Just what the fuck were you thinking then, joining the military? Job Core is for you if you don't want to fight! The primary mission of the military is to fight wars and kill people, not teach you a job. They ought to be telling these people that either they fight or go spend some hard time at Leavenworth learning job skills at breaking rocks.

'Conscientious Objectors' indeed.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

Is there an intelligence ceiling for joining the army?

'We have to fight? With real bullets? This isn't just an aerobics program?'

Wankers.

EDIT: I guess that they just joined up for the gay sex?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501

My personal favorites have to deal with women in the military; sorry to good women soldiers and sailors everywhere.

1) Woman enters military to pay for med school. When given orders after completion to work for military hospital, she calls "Conscientious Objection."

2) Women ordered to go on "tours." Get knocked up, dropped off at next port, next stop? Abortion.

But women are equal, and have a right to be in the military, right?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16728

quote:

---

Originally posted by bunkum


But women are equal, and have a right to be in the military, right?

---

Well, not if we start excusing them for horrible behaviors because of their hormones
I agree with the boat ho thing also, 85% of the chicks I met that were in the Navy were big time easy.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2000
Location:
Posts: 5131

/me goes trolling for Navy chicks.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

It is, of course, pathetic to join the military and then claim, as soon as war breaks out, that you didn't want to actually FIGHT or anything. Those who are granted CO status as a result of their application should be given the most horrid non-combat jobs imaginable. Corpse-sifting and what-not.

That having been said, it is also true that the advertising campaigns of several military branches send the wrong signals. This is true not so much because they are misleading as because they attract the wrong sort of person. Campaigns such as "an army of one," which play to the desire of the viewer to get what they can for themselves rather than as an opportunity to serve and kill, don't strike me as being ideally suited to bringing in good soldier-types.

It is ironic that these campaigns are seen as necessary, given that they only branch of the military that isn't having trouble meeting its recruitment goals--the Marines--is the one that's still using ads that emphasize being part of something larger than yourself. I'd be very, very curious to see what percentage of the new COs referred to in the article above are Marines.

None of my comments above are meant as a slight upon the citizen-soldiers who post in this forum. I have nothing but respect for their sacrifice and sense of duty, and I wish them well in this diffcult time.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location: Arizona
Posts: 969

Over the years I have encountered many young people with plans to go into the military...I hear the same thing over and over.."they will pay for my college, and I will get to see the world"

I always lead the subject around to the question of "So, you are willing to die for your country?" Everytime I see surprise from the person considering joining..they dont understand that the military is for fighting rather than free education...Is this due to so much peace time? I have seen most of those youth change their minds on the military once they realize that dying is a risk you must take for the free stuff...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501

Chips, your criticism is absolutely correct and very insightful. The campaigns in the past have served to bring in some of the lowest of the low, people who could never make it in the real world--at a job or in school. Hell, my father--God bless him--probably crashed more cars driving drunk than the local hillbillies at the time that he signed up, and those were the "good ol' days." He broke every rule he could, and enjoyed doing so. The current campaigns speak to our country's "philosophy," which we see rampant in government programs and in schools. The individual is supreme over all, and relativism rules the day.

Rant aside, I can give some facts to back up some of the claims against the campaigning:

a) When someone enlists, they are offered a bonus if they agree to serve beyond the required time. Their pay, over time, is larger than if they do their required four years only.

b) The monthly pay for an enlisted soldier is fairly low--less than $600 a month, but that entails living in the barracks with meals provided. They receive more money if they get married and move out. Young men call up their high school sweethearts, and say, "Let's get hitched," under the notion that two can live as cheaply as one. If they don't get married, many take out a lease or sign up for hefty payments on a car they can't really afford. If they have a dollar, they'll spend then. They're young.

c) The soldiers go on their tour, the wives stay at home, separated from family and friends from their hometowns (unless they lived near the base). Cheating is rampant, debts soar, life is miserable. Suddenly, everyone wonders how they got themselves into these situations.

What is needed is a stronger honesty policy at the time of sign up, continued financial counseling, debt management especially, and better ad campaigns. I'm sure a lot of people have seen the recent Navy ads, which show guys and gals doing cool manuevers in James Bondish boats, land cruisers, and air planes. Daily reality is not like that. Daily reality entails dealing with smelly bunkmates in cramped conditions, shit food, confined duty on a ship for weeks on end, endless forms to fill out and machines to monitor, and the reality that it's going to keep going for another few years.

I maintain, in agreement with you, in spite of dishonesty in advertising, that people got themselves into the situation. You sign your name, you fulfill your obligations. You don't get knocked up to avoid a tour of duty, you don't scream that you're a pacifist to avoid going to Pakistan, and you don't go AWOL. Ignorance is no excuse. And sometimes, finding out that you've signed up for something you don't fully understand can provide a good life lesson: don't do it again.

If these shits are allowed out of duty, what do they learn? That nothing is binding? That they can renegotiate every situation they get into? I don't think anyone should be allowed to claim CO after they've voluntarily enlisted, and I curse the groups that support their "rights." I hope they burn in the same hell with judges who assign ridiculous litigation claims.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 37

SOUND OFF LIKE YOU'VE GOT A PAIR!

This is my rifle, this is my gun,
This is for pleasure, this is for fun,

This is my rifle, this is my gun,
This is for pleasure, this is for fun,

This is my rifle, this is my gun,
This is for pleasure, this is for fun,

"I like you Private Joker, I'm gonna bring you home so you can fuck my sister."

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2076

"The current campaigns speak to our country's 'philosophy,'" - Bunkum.

You meant "ideology," right?

Surely you're not insinuating that our american "values" are pulled from a philosophical lean?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501

quote:

---

Originally posted by Feral Automaton
"The current campaigns speak to our country's 'philosophy,'" - Bunkum.

You meant "ideology," right?

Surely you're not insinuating that our american "values" are pulled from a philosophical lean?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2076

Oh bunkum - you know that I can't resist you're professor wit an... - WAIT!!! NO BOOBIES TODAY!?!?!

You've got to be taking the piss?!?! No tits? COME OFF IT! We eat we sleep we take really long showers with nobody to see our lonely, ugly male bodies and here YOU'RE DENYING WE AMERICANS A LOOK AT YOUR SLANTED ENCHANTMENTS?!?!

FOR SHAME!!

...

Uhhh...

Sorry.

That just uhh... Yeah.

...

...

Glad to be of... uuhhh... Service.. Yeah...

...

Ser - vice.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4691

quote:

---

Originally posted by euphorbia
Well, not if we start excusing them for horrible behaviors because of their hormones
I agree with the boat ho thing also, 85% of the chicks I met that were in the Navy were big time easy.

---

I can verify this

edit: bunkum, you're spot-on, except that our base pay is around $1000 a month for junior enlisted (E-1 makes about $900, I make around $1200. Even if you don't consider free room & board, medical, dental, etc. this is minimum wage).

Last edited by squee on 10-18-2001 at 11:16 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501

squee, thanks for the clarification...I was using figures that were obviously outdated, back in the days when my boyfriend first enlisted. He cleared that up for me earlier, as well.

Additionally, there are three opportunities for new enlistees to declare conscientious objection at the time of enlistment. One is oral, two are written. The entire thing is explained to them; i.e., "you're joining up with the understanding that you could be called to war, that you could be injured, that you could die. you agree that you are not a conscientious objector, that you will serve." If they can't understand that, then they're too stupid to be in the military. All this "I didn't know my rights" shit is getting old these days, and it's not just CO status that I'm talking about.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location:
Posts: 2701

Hey..does this mean I can voluteer to be a firefighter and refuse to go near any flames?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: baton rouge, la
Posts: 4101

what do they do with the rocks that they break?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: Sydney, Straya mate
Posts: 346

It should be a requirment on signing up that you strangle a cute puppy, and shoot a loyal dog. This way we'll know the people in our military eat thunder and crap lightning.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: May 2001
Location:
Posts: 2701

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mr Snrub
It should be a requirment on signing up that you strangle a cute puppy, and shoot a loyal dog. This way we'll know the people in our military eat thunder and crap lightning.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 22

squee wrote:

>*snip*
>Even if you don't consider free room & board, medical, dental, etc.
>this is minimum wage).


"Even" is not the right word here. This isn't just a semantic point. I make just above minimum wage doing boring manual labor. After the government gouges my check for around 25%, I bring home ~$800 a month. I have no medical or dental benefits. With this paycheck, I pay rent, bills (okay, so maybe cable internet access instead of dial-up isn't absolutely necessary), and hopefully eat, unless something else crops up.

Basically what I'm saying is this... yeah, they pay for your college education, and that's great, but they also pay all your living expenses. Here's how we compare the "expendable" income of the lowest Army grunt and the minimum wage worker:

lowest army grunt: ~$900
minimum wage worker: ~$80 (if cable internet isn't considered necessary)
Who has the better deal? Well, my apartment is nicer. People don't yell in my face. I live with one other person, and she doesn't stink, and occasionally that means I get laid. I don't have to kill anyone.

On the other hand, I don't have any money to save, I don't get to visit other parts of the world (even if it is only Fort Hood, Texas), there's absolutely no room for advancement in my minimum wage job (and certainly not just because I'm smarter than anyone else or because I recruited more people to join my workplace). I don't get my own M-16 (which is a really nice expensive gun). Oh, and I also have to buy my own clothing.

If you're in the Army, as bunkum pointed out, you pretty much had to know going in that there was a change you'd have to either kill or be killed. That's the four-year risk you take in order to save (without rank advances) $43,200 US, plus have college paid for. That's a pretty good deal for someone who doesn't have any other prospects but minimum wage for the rest of their life.

Me, I'm hoping that a Bachelors degree in linguistics and sociology will one day land me a better job than stockboy.

Mind you, this is just my two cents, brought on by one word in squee's post, and not meant to imply that squee does not agree with some of what I've pointed out. I guess it's a bad situation for some people, and not what they had in mind when they signed up, but it's not like regular Army life is kept secret. If you look beyond the commercials and ask around, you've got a pretty good idea of what it's going to be like.

savagely.
of savagely.castrate.org

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: The Great Satan
Posts: 40