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Spooky
twisty turny thing

Registered: Jul 2000
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The Right to Die?

BBC

A terminally-ill woman has pledged to continue her court action to win the right to be helped to commit suicide. Three High Court judges decided that motor neurone disease sufferer Diane Pretty's husband Brian could not assist her suicide without potentially facing criminal action and a 14-year prison term. However, she will now take the case directly to the House of Lords.

Motor neurone disease is an incurable and progressive illness which is gradually taking away Mrs Pretty's ability to move and communicate with others. She wants to commit suicide, but would need assistance to do so. She claims her quality of life has become so low that denying her the opportunity to commit suicide is a breach of her human rights.

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Now, while I think euthanasia can be dangerous (if the law is too relaxed that is) in the specific case of this woman, I personally think she should have the right to die with dignity if that is what she chooses, the fact she needs assistance must, in my opinion at least, mean that her husband be immune from prosecution. This is a massive test over here at the moment on the legality of suicide and asited suicide. Currently suicide is against the law?!?!?

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10-19-2001 08:15 AM

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geaeslore
fallen mathlete

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
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I don't personally feel that I have the right to take away a persons desire or right to do what they want to, inculding suicide. On the other hand I think suicide is weak, very weak. Everyone can do something constructive, no matter how small they think it may be. Heck, just living with such a disorder may inspire untold others to do the same and to find things to live for. I definitely have NO respect WHATSOEVER for those who feel suicide is the only option.

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10-19-2001 08:20 AM

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Spooky
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fair enough geaslore. Although I don't think suicide, in this case a weak option. This woman cannot move. She is a perefect healthy mind that is trapped. Her quality of life is not exactly high.

Stephen Hawking has the same disease, but he has his work to help him along. This woman is going to die in a year or so naturally. Unlike Hawking she has a much more severe case of the disease, a year ago she was perfectly healthy.

This woman is not saying that suicide is the ONY option. She just wants the legal right to have the option and to ensure that her husband, or whoever assists her is not prosecuted for murder.

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10-19-2001 08:25 AM

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RiZZ
awsomeness incarnit

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: aggressivly happy
Posts: 9120

yes in the USA you can be chaged with "attempted suicide"

it is illeagle

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10-19-2001 08:26 AM

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Spooky
twisty turny thing

Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by RiZZ
yes in the USA you can be chaged with "attempted suicide"

it is illeagle

Then they put you in a nice, calming, non depressing environment like the state pen.

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10-19-2001 08:27 AM

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DevilMoon
passive stalker?

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10413

I've actually met Dr. Kevorkian.

I am kind of in favor of it, but I worry about people offing the inconvienient.

D

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10-19-2001 08:30 AM

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geaeslore
fallen mathlete

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2451

quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
fair enough geaslore. Although I don't think suicide, in this case a weak option. This woman cannot move. She is a perefect healthy mind that is trapped. Her quality of life is not exactly high.

One reason I say this option is weak is beacause she does have a healthy mind. Just because someone can't walk or talk is no reason to just cash in your chips and call it quits. So what if she's likely to die in a year, you can do alot in a year, if you want to. Sure if she sits around all the time feeling sorry for her condition which won't let her live as she used to, then the next year will be hell, but that's not what anyone should do. Tomorrow will come for most of us, there is always something to live for.

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10-19-2001 08:38 AM

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Inky
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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Oakland-ish
Posts: 6032

quote:
Originally posted by geaeslore
I definitely have NO respect WHATSOEVER for those who feel suicide is the only option.

you have no idea what those people might be going through, how can you disrespect them?

Instead, why don't we focus that feeling of disrespect on those who have the power of giving people a decent quality of life but do not?

My uncle, who was a decorated war hero and wounded in the war suffered incredible pain due to his injury, and could find no relief. In the end he shot himself. He was a very strong and brave man who could just no longer take it.

I am not sure how I feel about legalizing suicide in these cases, I have a fear that at some point people could just do away with unwanted family members.

We have a horrible record of how we take care of our terminally ill, aging, and handicapped.

Do we as a moral society want to provide a better quality of life or a better quality of death?

I am of mixed feelings, obviously, but until we can show a better example of taking care of those I just mentioned, I wouldn't want to give them the power to take my life if I, or a family member, decided that it was time.

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10-19-2001 08:44 AM

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geaeslore
fallen mathlete

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
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quote:
Originally posted by Inky

Instead, why don't we focus that feeling of disrespect on those who have the power of giving people a decent quality of life but do not?

I agree that we as a society need to improve the quality of life for those who feel strongly enough to take there own life.

On the other hand I am stongly against giving up. I also have known people that I thought very highly of in life that decided to take their own lives, and I say the same to them. If you give up you are weak. Life is not easy for anyone. Some may seem to have it better than others, but everyone has their problems. From an individual standpoint often your problems are just as bad as others, no matter what the person on the outside has to say. No one can know exactly how a particular problem effects a particular person, but I bet dollars to donuts that whatever the problem, someone has lived and thrived through something relatively worse.

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10-19-2001 08:51 AM

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Inky
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quote:
Originally posted by geaeslore

If you give up you are weak.

I totally disagree with you on this one...

We are all going to die of something. Perhaps we should fight that, too?

I mean, it's just weak to give up!

i wish I had a better argument than that, but I have seen people in incredible pain who hung on for as long as they could, and it wasn't noble, it was tragic.

i have no idea of your life experience or what would lead you to say that, but I think it's a terrible insult to call someone who wants the pain to stop for good "weak".

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10-19-2001 09:06 AM

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geaeslore
fallen mathlete

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
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quote:
Originally posted by Inky

. . . I think it's a terrible insult to call someone who wants the pain to stop for good "weak".

It is not the wanting that is weak. It is when you allow your pain to consume you to the point that your only consideration is to end the pain.

As Wesley said it in The Princess Bride:
"Life is pain . . ."

We all experience it, at some point to the degree that we want nothing more than for the pain to stop, but most of us don't commit suicide. Get over it and move on, whatever it is.

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10-19-2001 09:11 AM

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Inky
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quote:
Originally posted by geaeslore

As Wesley said it in The Princess Bride:
"Life is pain . . ."

We all experience it, at some point to the degree that we want nothing more than for the pain to stop, but most of us don't commit suicide. Get over it and move on, whatever it is.

this is real life we are talking about. some people cannot "get over it and move on".

This isn't one of life's painful moments we're talking about. Imagine pain, physical or mental consuming your life everyday for years on end, getting worse as you go? The idea of legalizing assisted suicide is not meant for casual use...it would only be used in the most serious cases.

Quite frankly, I don't see much difference between doping yourself heavily on morphine to get relief and ending your life. We just have decided that one is okay. Think of some religions that don't even allow you to seek medical attention if you are sick or injured. God will heal you. They think seeking out a doctor is weak.

Sorry, this isn't the Princess Bride.

I ask you Geasalore, what is your personal experience with the terminally ill, or those in chronic, worsening physical or mental pain?

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10-19-2001 09:31 AM

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geaeslore
fallen mathlete

Registered: Mar 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Inky
Imagine pain, physical or mental consuming your life everyday for years on end, getting worse as you go?

Quite frankly, I don't see much difference between doping yourself heavily on morphine to get relief and ending your life.

Sorry, this isn't the Princess Bride.

I ask you Geasalore, what is your personal experience with the terminally ill, or those in chronic, worsening physical or mental pain?

Often such quotes are used to express a point. I figured if I was going to use the same phrase I might as well give credit.

As far as personal experience, let's just say I have it. I don't feel the need to share such personal experiences here at this point.

That said I don't have to use much imagination at all to understand chronic pain that seems to get worse all the time, but ya know what? I got over it, I moved on, I live today and I will live tomorrow.

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10-19-2001 09:47 AM

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Inky
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quote:
Originally posted by geaeslore

That said I don't have to use much imagination at all to understand chronic pain that seems to get worse all the time, but ya know what? I got over it, I moved on, I live today and I will live tomorrow.

then it wasn't really chronic pain that got worse...it GOT BETTER and you moved on!

you are fortunate. Others aren't that lucky.

no offense, but I think you are missing the point about people desiring an end to pain that has no ending, that does not get better, that there is no chance of recovery. that's what we are talking about here. Nothing less than that.

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10-19-2001 09:56 AM

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Inky
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and by the way, I think it's a relatively miniscule amount of people who are in such a state, most people have an incredible will to survive, those who are asking to end their own lives through this manner are few and far between, and deserve some say in how their life should or should not be.

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10-19-2001 10:00 AM

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A.D.H.D
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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Van Diemen's Land.
Posts: 3607

I'm all for voluntary euthanasia.

Assisted voluntary euthanasia in this case, I believe to be acceptable.

Involuntary euthanasia (which does exist), I oppose.

I say give them the right to choose how to end their life.

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10-19-2001 10:14 AM

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geaeslore
fallen mathlete

Registered: Mar 2001
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 2451

quote:
Originally posted by Inky
. . . deserve some say in how their life should or should not be.

I am not saying they don't, nor am I saying that it should not be legal for someone to choose to end their life. All I am saying is that in my opinion those who choose such an option are weak of character.

"and that as they say is that"

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10-19-2001 10:23 AM

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wonderaz
Sarky Bastard

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 18823

Re: The Right to Die?

quote:
Originally posted by Spooky

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Now, while I think euthanasia can be dangerous.........

Ummmm I hear it can be fatal at times, too.

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10-19-2001 12:25 PM

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Ats
The machine

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Helsinki. Finland
Posts: 233

quote:
Originally posted by geaeslore

It is not the wanting that is weak. It is when you allow your pain to consume you to the point that your only consideration is to end the pain.

As Wesley said it in The Princess Bride:
"Life is pain . . ."

We all experience it, at some point to the degree that we want nothing more than for the pain to stop, but most of us don't commit suicide. Get over it and move on, whatever it is.

I think the purpose of life is beauty, to make it meaningful. But if you can't experience anything anymore or interact with the outside world, it could make life _really_ meaningless. On a complete different level than some philosopher might declare "Life is meaningless". So I think she should be allowed to die.

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10-19-2001 05:09 PM

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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

Oh, sure.

When western governments fail to recognize their citizens' Right to Die, we get flak for it.

But when we not only recognize the Afghani citizens' Right to Die, but also provide them with a massive aid program to help them realize this right, we get flak for THAT, too.

The endless contradictions of the counter-tribalists...

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10-19-2001 06:00 PM

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stormydoctor
Gay homo sewing fag

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Payne, Ohio
Posts: 2062

Shes in a wheel chair right? Why cant she drive it out into traffic or off a cliff?

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10-19-2001 08:45 PM

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Inky
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Location: Oakland-ish
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quote:
Originally posted by stormydoctor
Shes in a wheel chair right? Why cant she drive it out into traffic or off a cliff?

I am assuming she doesn't want a violent, painful death. And with either of those there's a chance she would survive, plus involve innocent people.

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10-19-2001 08:53 PM

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geaeslore
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Registered: Mar 2001
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Posts: 2451

quote:
Originally posted by Inky

then it wasn't really chronic pain that got worse...it GOT BETTER and you moved on!

I never said it got better, I never siad the pain got any better or worse, I just said I moved on, there is a difference. Often the only way to live with pain is to ignore it, suppress it. The pain is still there as strong as ever, it is just a matter of how much you let it bother you.

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10-19-2001 09:40 PM

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Roshigoth
The Cheesemeister

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 15123

She knows she's going to die soon anyway. There's NOTHING that can be done about it, right?

The way I see it, she can either sit there and hold on, enduring constant pain as well as total helplessness for however long is necessary before she kicks it. During this time, she can't very well accomplish anything with her life, because she can't *do* anything. She will lose her ability to move and communicate. In the meantime, her loved ones will have to endure seeing her suffer helplessly, not to mention provide the means to keep her "alive".

The other option would be to meet her end on her own terms, in her own time.

I don't see that as weakness or cowardice. She doesn't want the pain and helplessness, and she also doesn't want to be a liability to her loved ones. I think that it's simply the solution she feels will benefit everyone most.

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