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Spooky
twisty turny thing
Registered: Jul 2000
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Its funny how the rest of the World gets ignored sometimes
Anyone watching/reading the new might think that there are only about three things happening in the world. Israel, Afghanistan and the War on Terrorism.
Why do we never hear the news junkies in this forum mentioning anything else I wonder? Its like the rest of the world is unimportant, the rest of the deaths, destruction, chaos are paled in significance to what strikes the agenda as most important. Why?
Selective campaigns, for selective causes is all we get from most. More often than not its a moralist stance about somethign coming from a person that is amoral and unethical. Why does this happen. Why do things get ignored?
I find it highly amusing that the crisis in the Middle East dominates the front pages, dominates our minds. The West's amoral crusade against 'evil doers'. What a bunch of crap. Why do these things get ignored?
The West and its 'police force' seems to be so inconsistant in its condemnation of atrocities. We hear argument about 'appeasing Israel', 'appeasing Palestine', 'bin Laden this', and 'bin laden that', we are utterly obsessed with a man that has maybe been involved in the killing of mere handful of people compared to others. We seem to place very little value on human life unless it affects us. The others can rot for all we care it seems.
We are all amoral cowards trying to control parts of the worlds that affect our interests and ignore anything else that may be going on.
Hundreds raped in Kenya Clashes
Rwanda accused of troop build-up on DRC Border - I guess we should prepare to turn our back on the genocide once more.
FW De Klerk's former wife murdered
Mugabe brands reporters 'terrorists' - Of course Mugabe is not a lefty so we like him I guess.
Six More Killed in Ghana Clashes
Rwandan Genocide Witness Storm of out of Court in anger
Violence erupts in Kibera
Africa. The forgotten continent it would seem. Historical irony is wonderful. The West pludered this continent, gave them disease, economic ruin, enslaved and transported its inhabitants across the world, and then left the carnage. It ignores the atrocities daily because it cares not about human life, it only cares about the life of its own citizens. Humanitarian policies? I think not.
And from other quarters of the forgotten world.
Phillipines Peace Deal Shattered
Sri Lankan election marred by bloodshed and claims of official fraud
Venezuela Riot Police quell clashes
Argentina Bankrupt
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12-06-2001 05:58 PM |
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MstrG
The Talamasca
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
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I suspect these things dominate the media because people are interested in them, and the vast majority don't share your opinion about the amorality of our action or the insignificance of a single terrorist act taking out 3000+ people.
Im aware of the "other" news because I seek it out. Whatever you may think about Matt Drudge as a journalist, his site is a great portal to news of all kinds worldwide.
edit: Even as I type, there's a report on tv about Prince Edward's wife Sophie being airlifted to a hospital! See, global news!
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12-06-2001 07:02 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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Don't get me wrong G, I am not saying that people choose to ignore it, or are not global aware. I am saying that the West is, in general, very selective about where it promotes it concerns.
3000+ people killed in a single act is horrific. But then the 800,000 killed in Rwanda is just as, if not more horrific. Did we go after the culprits with the same such verocity at the time? Or did we sit back and watch the carnage unfold?
The crucial point is that the 800,000 in Rwanda, or the rising numbers in Kenya, are not 'our' citizens. So our reactions to it tend to be that of the 'ostrich' scenario. At the same time we hear the rhetoric that we value human life so much, when in reality this seems to be a lie, or more diplomatically, a half-truth. We value only the human life of our citizens, not human life as a whole. We, it would seem, appear to appease genocide, torture, and murder of innocence when it happens in areas that are not in our spheres of interest.
This is my point.
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12-06-2001 07:13 PM |
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MstrG
The Talamasca
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And my point would be: why would we go in when we've neither been "invited", nor have any vested interest in it. Everyone is so quick to jump on the west, and the US in particular, for sticking their noses in where it doesn't belong. You'll always find a reason to criticize.
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12-06-2001 07:29 PM |
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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll
Registered: Sep 2000
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Re: Its funny how the rest of the World gets ignored sometimes
quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
Why do we never hear the news junkies in this forum mentioning anything else I wonder?
Such as the genocide in Sudan?
quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
Its like the rest of the world is unimportant, the rest of the deaths, destruction, chaos are paled in significance to what strikes the agenda as most important. Why?[/b]
Because it strikes the agenda as most important.
The networks have a finite amount of coverage to offer. The audience has a finite attention span. Both groups prioritize. The fact that some issues are ignored can hardly be suprising, and those who ignore them can hardly be blasted as amoral.
One CAN criticize on the grounds that our priorities are skewed. But even here, I think it is understandable that folks tend to emphasize information in which they are directly or tangentially involved. Yes, the sizable Arabic and Jewish populations in the west will probably skew network coverage towards coverage of that issue. Yes, the deaths of American citizens will skew the American media towards coverage of Osama Bin Laden. That doesn't make people amoral, it makes them self-interested. I'd argue there's a difference.
It would make a lot more sense for focusing on Israel at the expense of other issues than to criticize the western media.
[/b][/quote]
quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
Africa. The forgotten continent it would seem. Historical irony is wonderful. The West pludered this continent, gave them disease, economic ruin, enslaved and transported its inhabitants across the world, and then left the carnage. It ignores the atrocities daily because it cares not about human life, it only cares about the life of its own citizens. Humanitarian policies? I think not.
[/b]
This is a seperate issue...but you're not seriously contending that colonialism and the slave trade are the principal reasons for poverty and chaos in sub-saharan Africa, are you? Assume Europe had sunk into the sea in the year 2000 B.C...exactly how much more stable and prosperous would Africa be than it is today?
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12-06-2001 07:57 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
Im trying really hard to control my temper.
Why?
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12-06-2001 10:26 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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Re: Re: Its funny how the rest of the World gets ignored sometimes
quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
This is a seperate issue...but you're not seriously contending that colonialism and the slave trade are the principal reasons for poverty and chaos in sub-saharan Africa, are you?
ummm...yes and no really. Are you seriously trying to suggest that it had _nothing_ to do with it whatsoever?
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12-06-2001 10:27 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by MstrG
And my point would be: why would we go in when we've neither been "invited", nor have any vested interest in it.
Well in the case of Rwanda we were invited. Begged too I beleive. We chose not too. On top of that I don;t understand personally why there is necessity for 'vested interests' to control action. If you know that over half a million people are being slaughtered because they are from the wrong tread is it ethically or morally right to stand by idle and watch it happen just because the country has nothing you want? What does that say about human beings and the 'civilised' world I wonder?
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12-06-2001 10:30 PM |
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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll
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Re: Re: Re: Its funny how the rest of the World gets ignored sometimes
quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
ummm...yes and no really. Are you seriously trying to suggest that it had _nothing_ to do with it whatsoever?
Depends. I think that slavery was morally reprehensible in and of itself. I think colonialism led to some rather serious ugliness, along with some definite benefits.
And I think that had neither ever happened, sub-Saharan Africa would have exactly the same problems with poverty, disease, and warfare that it has today. We participated, we sullied ourselves, we should be ashamed...but we didn't cause the problems.
P.J. O'Rourke's seemingly racist statement nonetheless rings true: "Man initially evolved in Africa. He has not continued to do so there."
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12-07-2001 04:29 AM |
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified
Registered: Aug 2001
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Its funny how the rest of the World gets ignored sometimes
quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
And I think that had neither ever happened, sub-Saharan Africa would have exactly the same problems with poverty, disease, and warfare that it has today. We participated, we sullied ourselves, we should be ashamed...but we didn't cause the problems.
I would be inclined to say that the main issue in Africa is that of war. The big famines have been either caused or tremendously exarcabated by war. You might say that there were always wars between tribes, but they were different before the imposition, by colonial powers, on aftificial national boundaries in a country that only really recognised tribal nationality. Apart from the fact that, prior to colonialism, the weapons used were less useful for inflicting massive casualties, there were no standing armies for example (Shaka Zulu ran the first standing army in Africa, I was told by a military historian) and wars were more limited in their extent. If you have a country to govern, however, containing more than your own tribe, that is almost an invitation to endless civil war. The cultural paradigm in tribal society is that the tribal leader looks after his tribe; this is not terribly helpful when leading a multitribal country. Cultural change is not something that is going to happen because a few people will it so; why should it happen at all anyway? Colonialism forced it on many African people.
This is not to support the view that Europe owes reparation or that US slave descendants are owed cash, as that would appear to be impractical and also makes a contentious statement about the identity of a country somehow being inherited over successive generations of its inhabitants, but I am not convinced by the view that Africa was destined for shitstreet whatever happened. I think that slavery might, in the end analysis, be one of the lesser evils of colonialism. That irritating mantra of the aid charities to the effect of 'give a man food and he is fed for a day, but teach him to grow his own food and he can feed himself for life' might be changed to 'kill a man and he is dead, but teach him to kill and he can teach others and together they can kill millions, year on year and generation after generation'.
I said at the time (in chat I think) that although the WTC attack would be historically significant because of the staus of the US as a superpower, that as an act of barbarism it was nothing like as bad as some of the things going on in Africa every year. It doesn't make the WTC bombing less horrific but it puts it in a wider context; sometimes seeing the big picture can prevent hysteria about one's own experience and bad luck.
It will be interesting to see how a similar tribal situation is dealt with in Afghanistan in the years to come.
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12-07-2001 11:24 AM |
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David Lee Roth
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I find it interesting that Sp00ky is suddenly interested in other news of the world at the exact same time as the Taliban is surrendering and the US is successfully completing phase 1 of the war on terror.
When bin Laden is captured I would imagine historical wrongdoings by the US will be brought up.
When Hussein is brought to his knees, I'm sure we'll be up to our necks in the plight of the Native Americans and slave reparations.
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12-07-2001 07:41 PM |
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid
Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by David Lee Roth
I find it interesting that Sp00ky is suddenly interested in other news of the world at the exact same time as the Taliban is surrendering and the US is successfully completing phase 1 of the war on terror.
When bin Laden is captured I would imagine historical wrongdoings by the US will be brought up.
When Hussein is brought to his knees, I'm sure we'll be up to our necks in the plight of the Native Americans and slave reparations.
LOL
You tha man Mr. Roth!
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12-07-2001 08:37 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by David Lee Roth
I find it interesting that Sp00ky is suddenly interested in other news of the world at the exact same time as the Taliban is surrendering and the US is successfully completing phase 1 of the war on terror.
It will be sucessful when Afghhanistan is satble and has peace. And at the moment not even the most ardent realist can claim that is a reality in anyway whatsoever.
quote:
When bin Laden is captured I would imagine historical wrongdoings by the US will be brought up.
No, when bin laden is captured I will expect him to be treid at the Hague. If he is tried in the US then you will hear me reminding the US that it was they who calmed us down after WW2 and said it was necessary to have trials in Nuremburg and not in Britain to maintain the principle of justice.
quote:
When Hussein is brought to his knees, I'm sure we'll be up to our necks in the plight of the Native Americans and slave reparations.
When Hussien is brought to 'his knees' I am sure we will be up to our necks in nerve gas, anthrax, small pox, and whatever else he throws at the world. And it will be the hawks that I will be blaming for destabilising the world.
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12-07-2001 11:34 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
You tha man Mr. Roth!
With the greatest of respect, if you care how you represent yourself in thread insulting of anyone or any idea or lack there of you might want to represent yourself better grammatically.
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12-07-2001 11:36 PM |
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David Lee Roth
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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
It will be sucessful when Afghhanistan is satble and has peace. And at the moment not even the most ardent realist can claim that is a reality in anyway whatsoever.
The mission in Afganistan was not to bring stability there. It was to go after bin Laden, Al Queda, and those who harbor them. There has never been stability there, why would rooting out the regime du jour make any difference?
quote:
No, when bin laden is captured I will expect him to be treid at the Hague. If he is tried in the US then you will hear me reminding the US that it was they who calmed us down after WW2 and said it was necessary to have trials in Nuremburg and not in Britain to maintain the principle of justice.
He will be given a fair and just trial and then executed. (sarcasm)
I don't forsee ant circumstance in which bin Laden is taken alive. Be it his doing or the US. It won't happen.
quote:
When Hussien is brought to 'his knees' I am sure we will be up to our necks in nerve gas, anthrax, small pox, and whatever else he throws at the world. And it will be the hawks that I will be blaming for destabilising the world.
maybe we should just leave him alone then?
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12-08-2001 12:09 AM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by David Lee Roth
The mission in Afganistan was not to bring stability there. It was to go after bin Laden, Al Queda, and those who harbor them. There has never been stability there, why would rooting out the regime du jour make any difference?
you see this is the problem, and the distinct difference between the US and the UK on this issue. The US stance is bin laden. It saw a causal link betwene the Taliban and bin laden, and this was the only reason that the campaign was dirceted at the Taleban simultaneously. The rationale being that if you remove the Taleban, the terror network will fall. Thus far that rationale appears to not be true. (note: it was the Pentagon that said this some weeks ago in a press conference)
In comparison the UK is concerned greatly about the state of Afghanistan in the aftermath of this. Currently there are already splits in the interim government. There are those in the North that do not want Kabul to control them etc. The problem of Afghanistan is far from over. But as soon as it is confirmed bin laden has left there, which I think prolly happened some days ago, then the US will follow after him and leave the Royal Marines under the command of UN to help clear up the mess.
quote:
I don't forsee ant circumstance in which bin Laden is taken alive. Be it his doing or the US. It won't happen.
Probably true. What will be the end game of that though. bin Laden will enter into the realm of the mythical figures like the Ayatollah and others from the Middle East. His death will not bring about the end of islamic militancy, it will prolly help strengthen it. But then this is the Catch 22. If you kill him becomes a legend, and if you try him he becomes a visable martyr. No win situation really for the larger whole.
quote:
maybe we should just leave him alone then?
Well I think attacking Iraq at the moment would be very dangerous both diplomatically and militarily. One of the most successful elements of the Gulf War was what I believe the military call deconfliction. In the Gulf War the allies managed to keep the ISrael issue distinctly separate from the Iraq issue. Thus not upsetting the delicate balance and ending up with a Israel versus Arabs situation.
The problem now though is that because Israel have used the 'war on terror' rhetoric, and the US and UK have agreed with that rhetoric, there is no deconfliction. Any actions against Iraq will now be seen, if we are not very careful, in the Arab World as a condoning of all out war between Israel and Arabs. For if we openly accept that Israel's war on terror is justifed and thereby align oursleves with it, we tacitly draw Israel into the Iraq issue. We are both at war with terror so then Israel becomes a legitimate target for Saddam and the rest of the Arab World. The actions will truly become a holy war in the eyes of Arabs and that is highly dangerous and makes me very nervous.
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12-08-2001 12:32 AM |
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euphorbia
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
you see this is the problem, and the distinct difference between the US and the UK on this issue. The US stance is bin laden. It saw a causal link betwene the Taliban and bin laden, and this was the only reason that the campaign was dirceted at the Taleban simultaneously. The rationale being that if you remove the Taleban, the terror network will fall.
Where the hell did you get this gem of crap from?
I have not heard anyone from the Pentagon or anyone else involved say that when the Taliban was gone the "terror network will fall" That is ridiculous.
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12-08-2001 12:55 AM |
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Spooky
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quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
Where the hell did you get this gem of crap from?
oh just interviews with Rumsfeld on CNN, and Press Conferences, etc the usual places. I admit that I worded it a little wrong. But the gist behind the rationale of targetting the Taleban and removing them was linked to the terror network. The Taleban were certainly not targetted for their apalling human rights record.
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12-08-2001 12:59 AM |
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Spooky
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Can I assume u4b that you agree with everything else I said in that post then? Also I do like the oxymoronic use of language you chose two use. 'gem of crap'. Both valuable and worthless at the same time. Nice.
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12-08-2001 01:02 AM |
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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
I admit that I worded it a little wrong.
No, you worded it wholly wrong, in fact so poorly that the statement in its entirety was false. The Taliban were targeted for aiding terrorists.
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