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For me, patriotism has been a dirty word.

Pride in the US made me queasy. I preferred to call myself a Californian rather than an American, if forced to find a label.

However, thanks to the barrage of the "US sucks" posts here, I am now stunned to find stirred within myself an appreciation for America, my home, flaws and all.

Very weird and disturbing, but it's also rather nice

Does this place make anybody else feel dirty?

(spooky, seriously, have you ever considered taking advantage of your fascination and coming to the US for doctoral studies?)

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I love what I have seen of the US.

It is not that different to the UK in many ways, I found.

Although there are some wacky differences.

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quote:

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Originally posted by missphinx
patriotism

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see my sig

quote:

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(spooky, seriously, have you ever considered taking advantage of your fascination and coming to the US for doctoral studies?)

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I would if I could but I can't. I intend to visit again soon. I want to go back to Cali. Its been too long.

edit: I'm not anti-american btw, I just have a different take on certain things. I have said much of the things I have said here on other forums (american based and populated) and in Usenet and it is only here I am called anti-american.

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you can both come visit. Maybe

I've felt more at home in the UK and parts of Europe I've been in than I do in many areas of the US

It's strange to feel pissed off reading these articles dissecting US policies and practices though. Really.

Here. This guy's sense of humor and perspective is similar to mine: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/artic...notes121401.DTL

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There are many issues that I had regarding American foreign policy that I have disagreed with for many years, and it is true that a seasoned American traveller wears a Canadian flag if he wants to get lifts.

That being said the anti-american sentiment you have witnessed here not directed against the American people, but against their governments arrogance in world affairs.

Unfortunately 911 has upped the stakes arrogance wise, as many posts of this forum will attest to. 911 was the ugliest thing I have ever seen in my lifetime, but it just keeps getting uglier.

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I think patriotism means caring about your country. Caring enough to take part in it. Caring enough to be an asset to your community, to be responsible for your actions, and seeking change through the right venues when you see flaws.
It does not mean being a cheerleader for all of its actions.
Voting, charity work, raising your children to be good people, self sacrifice for a bigger picture, picking up liter off your street, rejecting bad behavior when it happens around you, trying to make your community/country a better place in general ect ect...these are the sorts of things a patriot does imo.

On a side note, I love my country because I know I am privileged to be here, because I, an uneducated female orphan (I hated saying that) was still able to dream and achieve.
Also because I have seen what is beyond the border, we in this country no matter how poor are truly blessed.
And because I love it I will seek to remedy what I see as its flaws in a constructive realistic manner and do my part to contribute what good I can.

Last edited by euphorbia on 12-18-2001 at 07:29 PM

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I think it is natural for most of us, being human, to appreciate our lives and the places we live in... the world is a beautiful thing, and that sort of experience is sort of universal. And you can love your country and the people around you (which is different than pride) but feel differently about your government - it's just that in America the distinction between the two is extremely blurred. Flaws are also some of the things that we love most about the character of the people we love, although I suppose you could find things to despise in the national character if you wanted to.

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As another thing on the topic about patriotism. I am not patriotic towards Britian, and am not patriotic towards England (except when eleven men are kicking a ball around a pitch).

I think having patriotic tendancies towards ones country's tends to make one a little blinkered to alternate views about ones country. After all, no one likes to think that their country has done, or does do nasty things, and at the end of the day, when one is patriotic it usually means that they tend to refuse to accept things that their country has done.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
When one is patriotic it usually means that they tend to refuse to accept things that their country has done.

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QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
As another thing on the topic about patriotism. I am not patriotic towards Britian, and am not patriotic towards England (except when eleven men are kicking a ball around a pitch).

I think having patriotic tendancies towards ones country's tends to make one a little blinkered to alternate views about ones country. [/QUOTE]


Maybe you should share your definition of what you think the word "patriotism" means because it seems you have redefined its meaning. Would you do anything aside from critiquing your country verbally to try and help improve it?
Do you think Patriot = cheerleader? If so you must be confused, unless this is going to turn into one of those "who cares what the word really means, I have the right to change its definition to suit my own needs” arguments.

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OK, first off, I didn't at any point define patriotism in my last post. I said those that hold the value of patriotism close to their chest tend to be blinkered in many scenarios.

I think patriotism is a 19th Century term that has no place in a 21st Century world. Things only get done (domestically in this country at least) when people criticise. That is how policy is formed, its called discourse. If we lived in a world where there was no criticial thinking we would all be living in authoritarian regimes of one kind or another.

Can you show me where I defined patiroitism in my last post, I am most interested to know where I did it.

edit: also why do I need to share with you my definition of patriotism if you can clearly see that I have redefined it. Why don;t you share with me my definiton of patriotism.

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euphorbia:
"Maybe you should share your definition of what you think the word "patriotism" means because it seems you have redefined its meaning. "

no no. I think he's just taking a stricter meaning for the word.

A discussion on the term and what it can mean is also interesting. (to me at least)

When I think "patriot" that's what first comes to mind, the flag-waving rahrah with limited ability to appreciate subtlety

So part of my post is my realization my broadening my own knee-jerk definition of patriotism to include myself.

I like this: "I think patriotism means caring about your country. Caring enough to take part in it. Caring enough to be an asset to your community, to be responsible for your actions..."

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quote:

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Originally posted by missphinx
"I think patriotism means caring about your country. Caring enough to take part in it. Caring enough to be an asset to your community, to be responsible for your actions..."

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky


Things only get done (domestically in this country at least) when people criticise.

No, things get done when people do them, when they get involved, take part, not by a bunch of people standing around whining.


That is how policy is formed, its called discourse. If we lived in a world where there was no criticial thinking we would all be living in authoritarian regimes of one kind or another.

See, I think we define critical thinking different too, I think what you mean when you say it is to look hard for fault, just criticism, eagerness to criticize. When I think of critical thinking I think of logic and honest evaluation. I guess it can mean both, but I just wanted to get that out of the way.

Can you show me where I defined patiroitism in my last post, I am most interested to know where I did it.

Your whole post implied what you meant, as does your sig.

edit: also why do I need to share with you my definition of patriotism if you can clearly see that I have redefined it. Why don;t you share with me my definiton of patriotism.

It seems from your sig to your last post you tend to think a patriot is merely a thoughtless person agreeing with his team no matter what just because its his team. (also implied in your above post and your comment about the game.)

You can criticize and seek to change elements in your country when you see fault and still be considered a patriot, as a matter of fact I would think if you didn’t you would not be a patriot at all.

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I have to agree with hell more on this one; writing letters, organizing associations and pickets, joining and participating in a political party - all these things have far greater impact on democracy than simply talking about it in coffee shops.

However, communication amongst 'the masses' and having an broadly-educated lower- and middle-class is also vitally important to the functioning of democracy, and as thus, criticism and discussion are positive things. As she said, they are only as effective as they are logical, impartial, and perceptive. But we're only human.

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quote:

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No, things get done when people do them, when they get involved, take part, not by a bunch of people standing around whining.

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You've never watched the UK Parliament then?

quote:

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Your whole post implied what you meant, as does your sig. It seems from your sig to your last post you tend to think a patriot is merely a thoughtless person agreeing with his team no matter what just because its his team.

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err my sig are quotes. They are not me. Although I do agree with the Oscar Wilde quote that patriotism (which is a value and thus open to inteptretation) does tend to be the virtue of the vicious. But with respect you still have not said what I have implied. I have said nothing about the definiton of patriotism.

I have merely said that those who tend to be patriotic also tend to be blinkered in there view about their countries actions.

If I must define it I will say this.Patriotism is an externally facing value. The internal facing values you express as acts of patriotism (whilst being honourable) are not, in my opinion acts of patriotism, because they are simply acts that exist within a given polity, regardless of national identity.

The internal facing qualities that you identified as patriotism are disconnected from the notion of national identitiy and therefore, IMHO, are not values that can be equated to patriotism. They are merely values that can be equated to community and social identity. Social identity defintions for that matter that can be seen the world over and do not have a direct connected linked with the notion of a national self.

quote:

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(also implied in your above post and your comment about the game.)

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DO NOT BLASPHEME THE BEAUTIFUL GAME!

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Just a note to say I acknowledge the fairness in both missphinx, and Gavin's last posts.

And I agree with Gavin, some is going to be subjective, but it can only subjective to a certain degree before it becomes unfair, factually wrong, unreasonable or unrealistic. But I think you are right on that point.

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I replied to you u4b, you just replied at the same time and missed it I think.

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Spooky, you define it how you would like. Knock your self out. Its truly telling about your character though.
I wholly disagree with your opinion about what a patriot is; and I find the rest of your views expressed in this thread useless in any applicable sense, in any constructive manner and in fact probably destructive. You say a lot of things that don’t really mean anything, or can not be used to improve upon anything, and you certainly don’t seem to be advocating anything other than expression of words. I’d hate to have to live in a society with a bunch of yous running it.
But that’s just my opinion put what value you wish on it.

And believe it or not I have little to no emotion while typing this out. It’s just a factual statement, with no contempt intended.

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I apologise u4b (and to any others that felt the same way) for writing in a way that seems alien to you. But, you asked me a question about a value laden concept, that would therefore by definiton be open to intepretation and debate.

I tried to take the value out, and place the concept in an objective abstracted world to actually see what it meant set against the things that yourself, and others had expressed in here. As such a test of the value against critical thinking.

The result was that it seemed to me that the things that were being expressed as elements of patriotism were in fact social elements that exist within community groupings large and small. Patriotism, by definiton is related to ones national identity. The actions that you and others have expressed as patriotic can exist within a country and yet not by necessity be directed at the country as a whole.

For example, one can have a hatred for their country but a love for their immediate and local community. They can become involved in that community or social group heavily. Involved in the way it is run and developed, without a single thought for the national interest. These actions are not patriotic in the slightest, yet under the thesis put forward by yourself and others they are patriotic actions.

Therefore, I would propose that it cannot be the actions of people that define patriotism. It is the direction of those actions that define patriotism, and that direction will always be towards the nation and therefore national identity.

I would find it very difficult therefore to accept that getting involved with the way things happen, joining protests, signing petitions etc, are by necessity acts of patriotism. One only has to look at supranational special interest groups to see that the 'getting involved' thesis of patriotism does not stand up to evaluative analysis.

Patriotism is a love of ones country's, and a patriot is one who loves and defends (physically) his/her country to the bitter end. It appears to me that it cannot be defined through social actions that exist independently of national identity.

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quote:

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Originally posted by euphorbia
Just a note to say I acknowledge the fairness in both missphinx, and Gavin's last posts.

And I agree with Gavin, some is going to be subjective, but it can only subjective to a certain degree before it becomes unfair, factually wrong, unreasonable or unrealistic. But I think you are right on that point.

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If everyone uses what they have at their disposal to make their community a good and prosperous place, in every community in a country and even reaching outside of their own into others to lend a hand, do you think that is beneficial to a country?
If you love your child do you not care for it, discipline it and help it find direction? Do you defend it? If you love something you nurture it, help it become strong and good and healthy right?

You must be the change you wish to see in
the world. Mahatma Gandhi

We as individuals have limited power, most of us contribute to our countries locally, I do think being a good citizen is a valuable thing to the country as a whole. Voting, charity, ect ect, I think are beneficial to the entire country, therefore people who do those things are in fact patriots.

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