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Spooky
twisty turny thing
Registered: Jul 2000
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Corporal Punishment in the home
New call for ban on smacking - BBC
Charity workers dealing with physically abused children say babies and toddlers in particular would be helped by a change in the law on smacking. ..... Physical punishment is outlawed already in UK schools, but not in the home - and not for childminders, with parental consent.
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None of the government and law's business or a sensible policy? A classic example of where the balance between individual freedon and collective responsibility produces valid arguments from both sides.
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12-20-2001 09:03 AM |
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coffeeman
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I used to get slapped, spanked, and kicked (not hard, just a little kick in the ass). Didn't do me a damned bit of good. My cousin used to get slapped and spanked. It did wonders for him.
It's not right for everyone, but it is for some, I think. I would be all for banning it in anone under 3-5 years old though. Or maybe by height/weight.
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12-20-2001 12:18 PM |
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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll
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This doesn't strike me (so to speak) as an area where legal sanctions are going to do a lot of good. I don't see child welfare authorities as particularly likely to drag away otherwise fit parents who choose to spank their children for disciplinary reasons.
In fact, I would guess that instances of otherwise fit parents being treated as criminals for this sort of thing are going to breed contempt for the law as a whole. Just as American schools' "zero tolerance" for weapons and sexual harrassment have led to some well-pubicized incidents of ludicrous punishment for ridiculously trivial reasons, one can forsee many parents becoming martyrs under this policy.
Not every problem must be solved through the law. Civil society can shut down many undesirable behaviors through simple consensus. If parents who make a point of smacking their kids find themselves drawing contempt and being shunned by other parents, they'll be less likely to do so.
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12-20-2001 05:16 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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Note it said 'babies and toddlers' would be a main area of the possible changes.
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12-20-2001 05:32 PM |
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David Lee Roth
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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Boston, MA USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
Note it said 'babies and toddlers' would be a main area of the possible changes.
I can't imagine that any type of law is going to stop someone who is inclined to beating babies and toddlers.
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12-20-2001 06:08 PM |
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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness
Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
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Well hitting a 'baby' at least as I think of one, is retarded, it's got less comprehension that your average puppy. However, I was spanked, never beaten, nothing that left anything lasting, momentary sting, but what lasted was a sense of shame, and that, was a deterrent like no other.
-m
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12-20-2001 06:46 PM |
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downnotout
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Registered: Nov 2001
Location: St.louis MO.
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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
Note it said 'babies and toddlers' would be a main area of the possible changes.
Yeah, to me anyway, that is an important distinction. Babies and toddlers have little ability to reason or to understand a consequence of action. So, I think there is no justification for physically punishing a child at that age.
Over age 4 or so it can be justified IMO. I think it depends on the child though. All it took with my daughter was a stern look or a "timeout". That was enough to bring such a sound of wailing that you would have thought that I had beat her!
I was spanked...never beaten. It didn't seem to harm me.
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12-21-2001 10:19 PM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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I like this discussion. As a hopeful parent I thiunk there is a very fine distinction between abuse and discipline. As a result I think that any law on this matter should take into account the liberty of private individuals and familes.
The real problem comes down to a value judgement. In this case it is about the judgement of when a 'smack' become abusive and not educational.
What I find most intresting in the thread so far though, is the way that those on the 'right' as it were (at least in my perception) are very different in their politics when confornted with a possibilty that affects them directly. Don't get me wrong, I am not having a pop at these people. I just think its intersting that peoples politics shift acorss spectrum rapidly when issues affect themsleves directly. This is a bi-directional process that I have observed many times.
What's most interesting is the way people shift to the centre from both extremes. In a way it convinces me that the centre and ie liberal way appears to be the rational one.
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12-21-2001 11:47 PM |
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downnotout
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I consider myself as a conservative mostly in the economic wing of the republican party. Socially I side with the so called moderates. Although I have no doubt it would still be considered conservative by you spooky.
Are you equating conservative republicans with stern discipline? If so, what is too stern? I mentioned what my idea of disciplining a child is. Do you have a problem with any physical contact between an adult and child in regards to punishment?
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12-22-2001 12:31 AM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by downnotout
Although I have no doubt it would still be considered conservative by you spooky.
well, in my experience, the very idea and notion of what is of left and right are extremely different in the US from Europe. So it stands to reason on that issue I will likely agree with you.
quote:
Are you equating conservative republicans with stern discipline?
Not at all. I am merely highlighting the apparent shift toeards the center that people on both sides of the spectrum take in this issue. Both sides react to 'governmental contorl' in this issue. After all the value that the left and the right seek are the same they just have different means more often that not.
quote:
If so, what is too stern?
Well, I am no judge or Law Lords. I would not personally like to be placed with that decision because it is an extremly relative one don't you think?
quote:
I mentioned what my idea of disciplining a child is. Do you have a problem with any physical contact between an adult and child in regards to punishment?
Well, with respect, the question is very vague if you don't mind me saying. But in the context of discipline, I think the same as I said in one of the war threads. Morally, I am opposed to it. However, intellectual I see the need for it terms of obligation.
However, I think this raises further issues about the way in which our (I mean the West) society has moved in the last year alone. This law, and the issues that it opens, I think are a Pandoras Box on the taboos about sexuality, identity, and morality. Ideas and movements that I think will debated (at least in academic institutions) for many years to come.
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12-22-2001 12:43 AM |
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MstrG
The Talamasca
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
What's most interesting is the way people shift to the centre from both extremes. In a way it convinces me that the centre and ie liberal way appears to be the rational one.
Do you actually post this tripe with a straight face?
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12-22-2001 12:44 AM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
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quote:
Originally posted by MstrG
Do you actually post this tripe with a straight face?
I just corrected it and I am very drunk. You should know that by now you cheeky git 
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12-22-2001 12:47 AM |
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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness
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Well I'd have to say that here, in the US, you won't find much 'shifting to the center' on this issue. There are those that believe the government should butt out, and then on the other side, there are those believe any sort of physical contact as punishment is wrong, and should be illegal.
-m
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12-22-2001 02:16 AM |
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splAt
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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by Spooky
What's most interesting is the way people shift to the centre from both extremes. In a way it convinces me that the centre and ie liberal way appears to be the rational one.
To me this reads,"Because people seem to agree with me in this, it appears that I am always correct,"
Anyway. Corporal punishment is an effective way to quickly discourage bad or dangerous behaviors. Nobody wants to see children beaten and nobody thinks that beating children is an effective way to raise them well. So parents should be allowed to discipline their children and it should be illegal to beat children.
I guess it'd be important to define what is discipline and what is abuse. Broken bones and cuts are obviously abuse. Anything less is arguable and a professional evaluation of a child's relationship with their parents and with other children would be required to determine if they are in a healthy environment. These evaluations, unfortunately, would likely be performed by the social workers whose current goal appears to primarily be reducing their workload (i.e. building a case against allowing parents to discipline their children so they can just strip children from their parents instead of working with families in the children's best interest).
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12-22-2001 01:33 PM |
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greenleakynipples
What a cock
Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
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I was spanked. I was spanked with a belt. It was good for me.
And you know the neat thing? The way I know spanking works is that my Dad didn't have to do it often.
Leakynips.
WOOT! This is my 100th. Now I can start making points. *cackles over the "bitch" points.
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12-30-2001 03:46 AM |
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Spooky
twisty turny thing
Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by splAt
To me this reads,"Because people seem to agree with me in this, it appears that I am always correct,"
good for you splat. I read it as 'sp00ky has skunk'
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01-02-2002 06:32 PM |
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