Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413

http://kevxml2a.infospace.com/_1_4K...=&feed=ap&top=1

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 17517

I think unions suck; its impossible to fire employees who are unproductive and incompetent, they screw the companies they work for, they tend to be corrupt while claiming to champion workers rights, they bully the rest of us out of jobs by telling us we have to pay them to work at certain places, and that’s just a few reasons.
We don’t need unions to look out for workers rights we can do that ourselves.
Its a philosophical thing to be sure and not some sinister, screw the working class conspiracy in favor of rich guys some choose to think it is.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413

Wal-Mart seems pretty inept in the workers rights department.

So long as Wal-Mart exists there will always bee need of a regulatory entity, and Corporate America won't regulate itself if it means spending $$$.

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Registered: May 2001
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 1037

I am an assistant manager at a movie theatre. I run the ENTIRE THING for weeks at a time.

I know the projectors, and all the sound equipment, digital and stereo. I can fix anything in that theatre by rigging it. I can fix ANYTHING properly if I have the proper parts.

Shane, the guy who comes and fixes shit while I am not there, gets paid 37 dollars an hour to do it. Its skilled trade.

I get paid (and please dont make fun of me) $5.15 an hour. I haven't gotten a raise in three years. No one has. I love my job that fucking much, I haven't left.

If I were to bring in a union, a Projectionists Union, I would immediatly be getting paid at least 20 an hour for the repair work I do.

Also, if I were to bring in a union, I would get fired.

I'm, currently, a big fan of unions. I just wish someone else would do it :/

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9470

i think unions are important, because without organization workers would slowly lose their rights. take skeet's example. i think unions have become a little too prevalent, the wages tend to get crazy, but the alternative is "the grapes of wrath".
i don't think business-people would be fair without enforcement. it's anti-capital thinking.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 2148

When unions first came into existance, they were very important. They got a lot of new laws passed, safer work environments, and pay relatively equivalent to the labor performed. It seems now, though, the unions that have been around for decades are not efficient and highly uneccesary.

My mother is a hard working Nurse. I've tried to convice her on many occassions to start a nurses union because to my knowledge it doesn't exist, and they are not even closely compensated monitarily for the work they perform. The thing is, her job record is so damn perfect they wouldn't be able to fire her. If they did, a lawsuit would come up. A company cannot legally fire you for starting or belonging to a union. Instead, they will try and find some lame excuse to can your ass.

Unions are real iffy right now. Some serve great purposes, others just wast money and time.

Funky subject to take sides on. Bittersweet.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9470

yeah, it's hardly black and white.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413

Corporations don't like unions because they make them play fair. Some unions are trivial, that is true, but many do more good than harm. I wish the Teacher's Union would get off its ass and start pressuring the government to pay them better.

Skeet: If you haven't gotten a raise in three years you really need to find a new job. Even though you love your job, it just isn't worth taking it up the ass. If you're guaranteed a raise at three months, and you don't get it, it's time to move on.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 7236

I think unions are a double-edged sword. In public sector industries I think they are essntial and serve an important purpose. However, I also think that if countries have decent and fair labour relations legislation in the first place then the Union is not needed.

I can think of one example where the existance of a Union would be nice, and that is on some cheap cruise company operating out of Florida (i forget the name).

We have a show in the UK called 'Back to the Floor' and in it the CEO of big companies goes back down to the floor of say a store, in this case a boat, and works like a normal bod. On this particular cruise ship they pay their staff 1 USD per day. The staff have to rely on tips for the rest of their money. The CEO was back on the floor defending the policy saying it was good for morale and an incentive to work hard. If exploitation ever existed it was on the ship. A union here would not be a bad thing.

edit: I do not think its either right or fair to make the claim that Unions are corrupt. Sure there are bad apples, but not all of them cause trouble. They also help you if you find yourself in a position of 'constructive dismissal'

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: the heart of an awl
Posts: 3692

I grew up watching the mining unions in action. I watched them overinflate salaries for unskilled workers, i watched them take their cut to help the mining companies lobby lawmakers to keep environmental standards low (poisoning the miners and their children in the process), i watched them make businesses become unprofitable and fail.

unions are anachronistic, unnecessary intermediaries that cost both employers and employees money. If a worker's skills, abilities, and knowledge aren't enough to garner the wages, benefits, and job security that s/he desires, then maybe they need to augment those skills, abilities, and knowledge. If you can be replaced by someone with less than a few years of training, don't blame the big, bad corporations for "stacking the deck against you." Yes, they're going to try to fuck you, intentionally or not, they are. It's up to you to protect yourself. If all else fails, and you're unhappy with the situation, WALK. That's your responsibility to yourself in a market economy (hint: you're dealing with a market economy whether you like it or not). It's not like Wal*Mart is shanghai-ing employees or kidnapping customers. There is an element of will involved.

We had a couple of unions court the ground service people at the airline i used to work for. Our station (top performing embodiment of teamwork that we were) met a couple of union guys, let them speak, and then pretty much told them to go to hell by voice vote. Other stations wanted the union. Those were the stations that were floundering, with poor safety records and low performance stats. They sent some of us over to help them out, and we got into it with some of them in the lunchroom one morning. We were pissed off because they were the ones cutting into our profit-sharing with their slacking, and they wanted to cut even deeper into the profit-sharing pie and hand a slice over to IAM or some other transportation union.

it's not black and white, but it's a fairly divisive issue, and i feel that a majority of the time those in favor of unions are insecure in their ability to compete. I feel like they're looking for paternalistic protection, a sugar daddy of sorts, a pimp, i guess. I believe you can choose not to let Sam Walton's heirs pimp your ass out. (Hint: if you are opposed to Wal*Mart's business practices, as i am, then do what a lot of people do: Don't patronize them as either a customer or an employee.)

I'm anti-union, yes, but i'm hugely in favor of employee ownership and/or profit sharing. I'm also in favor of trade guilds that have their own testing and qualification standards. I think Realtors would be an example of that. Something like a trade body that gives it's own UL or GoodHousekeeping - style seal of approval. Just don't legislate it.

Last edited by WastedPotential on 01-04-2002 at 09:24 AM

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

Unions have been a good thing at times. In industries where manpower is ample and conditions were unsafe, they where instrumental in getting workers a decent wage, better working conditions, benefits, etc.

However, in Detroit you can't fire a guy if you find him sleeping in a box or if he's drunk on the job. I know a guy that has a non union electrical business and some of the stories are amazing. Like the time one of his crews was doing work at the Mall of America and the Union people would come around and throw them off the site (so they'd go up to another floor and work there until they were chased back down). Stories of pouring cement in your conduit or cutting your wires short aren't uncommon.

Also I think the idea that to work in certain places you must join a union is stupid.

D

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Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 316

quote:

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Originally posted by SocialParasite

Skeet: If you haven't gotten a raise in three years you really need to find a new job. Even though you love your job, it just isn't worth taking it up the ass. If you're guaranteed a raise at three months, and you don't get it, it's time to move on.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35962

quote:

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Originally posted by DevilMoon

Also I think the idea that to work in certain places you must join a union is stupid.

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Registered: May 2001
Location: Louisiana
Posts: 987

quote:

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Originally posted by SocialParasite
*snip*I wish the Teacher's Union would get off its ass and start pressuring the government to pay them better.*snip*

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: the heart of an awl
Posts: 3692

which teacher's union? the local or the NEA?

my mom pays dues to the NEA, a state union, and a school district union.

the NEA isn't as much a union as it is a PAC, though. but membership is mandatory, as far as i know.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location:
Posts: 8571

Hey guys, you all are talking about unions being corrupt and workers don't work and all that other stuff and you are missing the real point.

Bush has repealed a Clinton-era rule favored by unions that prevents the government from awarding contracts to businesses that have broken environmental, labor, tax or other federal laws.

Why the fuck is that even mentioned in refference to unions? It's a measure done because of INDUSTRY LOBBISTS not becuase "them unioons are outta line!" This is a GE issue! They're painting it to look like it's a union issue just like this is a war issue and this is a war for freedom.
This is why Bush hates unions and why the Clinton era rule gets special mention.

Before you bad mouth unions remember that they have pretty much no more bargaining power now that the corporations can move where ever they want using economic stimulus money.

Kill the fucking lobyists and the business interests they represent. They all are a big bag of evil; leaking shit in our mental and physical environments.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: East Bay
Posts: 3392

quote:

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Originally posted by WastedPotential
which teacher's union? the local or the NEA?

my mom pays dues to the NEA, a state union, and a school district union.

the NEA isn't as much a union as it is a PAC, though. but membership is mandatory, as far as i know.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35962

quote:

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Originally posted by flocat

Membership is not mandatory, sort of. You will still have the dues taken out of your check but they can go either to membership dues or to a charity if you choose not to be a member of the union.

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 1581

Everytime I read the title of this thread, I think to myself, "What do you mean 'turning'?"

Bush is Republican. Unions are almost always Democrat. Bush has never been "friendly" toward them, unless he had some weird hope that he could get their vote. As soon as that chance was gone, he could care less.

I still hate the man. Cocaine-addicted, illiterate, good-for-nothing, drunken Conservative monkey in a suit.

Leakynips.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 17517

quote:

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Originally posted by Smug Git


And people think that the UK is a socialist nation!

That would fuck me right off.

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Im glad you too see it for what it is



and greenleaky...Id rather have a monkey for presdident than al gore....and bush isnt all that bad, he is just easy to hate.

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 1581

Gore maybe stiff and stoic, but at least he could read and write and talk with some level of competency. He was highly qualified, and would have been a good guy to have in office during a time of international crisis. He's not my first choice either, (Clinton is) but I like the idea of the President being mentally competent to take charge, rather than the VP, Sec of State, Sec of Defense, and NSA powwowing to decide the course of the nation.

Leakynips.

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