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Caffeine
Caffeine
Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 7117 |
Honeypots
Question:
Are they legal?
Illegal?
What does it depend on?
Is it a firearm type deal?
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01-03-2002 11:22 PM |
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Avondale
two maidens, one chalice
Registered: Sep 2000
Location: atlanta
Posts: 6642 |
honeypots are, in fact, quite legal, unless you are using them to seduce young bears.
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pics or it didn't happen
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01-03-2002 11:31 PM |
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Caffeine
Caffeine
Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 7117 |
Not at all.
Maybe someone here is educated enough in that field to know what I am referring to 
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01-03-2002 11:33 PM |
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Caffeine
Caffeine
Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 7117 |
enticement or entrapment.
I think that's what it comes down to. Just wondering if anyone here might be learned enough to help with the legality question.
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01-03-2002 11:37 PM |
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SocialParasite
100% pure failtanium.
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413 |
I don't see any reason why it would be illegal to set up a server specifically to have hackers hack it. It's kind of like mutual masturbation.
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You are speaking to a man who has injured himself. Pass me the medicaid benefit application. Holding it down. Taking my time. Municipal girl on the end of the line. Tell me my numbers. Send me some batteries. Stay out of sight, out of mind. The whole world is going to believe you get what you pay for. The first taste is free.
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01-04-2002 12:07 AM |
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Caffeine
Caffeine
Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 7117 |
quote:
Originally posted by SocialParasite
I don't see any reason why it would be illegal to set up a server specifically to have hackers hack it. It's kind of like mutual masturbation.
Entrapment laws.
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01-04-2002 12:08 AM |
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SocialParasite
100% pure failtanium.
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413 |
It's only entrapment if they are lead to hack the server by the very people who set it up and they then turn said hackers in to the authorities.
If it's just an average Joe hack it's just a hack.
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You are speaking to a man who has injured himself. Pass me the medicaid benefit application. Holding it down. Taking my time. Municipal girl on the end of the line. Tell me my numbers. Send me some batteries. Stay out of sight, out of mind. The whole world is going to believe you get what you pay for. The first taste is free.
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01-04-2002 12:12 AM |
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Caffeine
Caffeine
Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Cambridge
Posts: 7117 |
It has to be obvious that a crime is being commited (to both ends, trapper and intruder) before the bait has the effect of drawing the intruder to the... trigger.
(notifications, banners, etc etc)
i think.
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01-04-2002 12:19 AM |
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SocialParasite
100% pure failtanium.
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413 |
Either way it isn't entrapment. They just throw up a server and see what happens.
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You are speaking to a man who has injured himself. Pass me the medicaid benefit application. Holding it down. Taking my time. Municipal girl on the end of the line. Tell me my numbers. Send me some batteries. Stay out of sight, out of mind. The whole world is going to believe you get what you pay for. The first taste is free.
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01-04-2002 12:41 AM |
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splAt
Usually Courteous
Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 1606 |
Why would it be wrong for somebody to monitor how their computer is used?
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01-04-2002 01:04 AM |
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rodney
Hates airplanes.
Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Little Rock.
Posts: 2646 |
honeypots were really good wheels.
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The Troll thought of it first.
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01-04-2002 04:36 AM |
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bowmore
drive by drunk
Registered: Oct 2000
Location: canadian rockies
Posts: 1526 |
quote:
Originally posted by SocialParasite
It's only entrapment if they are lead to hack the server by the very people who set it up and they then turn said hackers in to the authorities.
If it's just an average Joe hack it's just a hack.
Not quite. It's only entrapment if it is performed by a law enforcement official.
okay.
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Happiness is a moveable feast.
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01-04-2002 05:21 AM |
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SocialParasite
100% pure failtanium.
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413 |
I figured an average Joe could do entrapment.
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You are speaking to a man who has injured himself. Pass me the medicaid benefit application. Holding it down. Taking my time. Municipal girl on the end of the line. Tell me my numbers. Send me some batteries. Stay out of sight, out of mind. The whole world is going to believe you get what you pay for. The first taste is free.
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01-04-2002 05:29 AM |
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Dead_Inside
Joey's Head Bitch
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: NH
Posts: 6086 |
quote:
Originally posted by splAt
Why would it be wrong for somebody to monitor how their computer is used?
Somebody needs to refute this basic arguement. Can anyone?
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01-04-2002 05:35 AM |
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crazy_wacky
Dr. Lovesyrup
Registered: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 275 |
quote:
Originally posted by splAt
Why would it be wrong for somebody to monitor how their computer is used?
It took me a while to come with an argument for this one...but here goes:
You are at someone's house.
You need to use the phone.
If they listen in on the conversation and record said conversation, is that invasion of privacy?
Most people would say yes.
Same thing with tracking information that is not yours, even though it is on your computer/server.
The PC you use at work is not yours. Do you want you boss watching what you do and turning that in to the "Authorities"?
Conversations between two or more parties, believed to be in private, are not the business of eaves-dropping server Admins.
The ACLU has been fighting this sort of thing in the work place for some time.
Here is an article from the ACLU on the subject: http://www.aclu.org/library/pbr2.html
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WTF Over?
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01-04-2002 06:42 AM |
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SocialParasite
100% pure failtanium.
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 19413 |
quote:
Originally posted by crazy_wacky
It took me a while to come with an argument for this one...but here goes:
You are at someone's house.
You need to use the phone.
If they listen in on the conversation and record said conversation, is that invasion of privacy?
Most people would say yes.
Same thing with tracking information that is not yours, even though it is on your computer/server.
The PC you use at work is not yours. Do you want you boss watching what you do and turning that in to the "Authorities"?
Conversations between two or more parties, believed to be in private, are not the business of eaves-dropping server Admins.
The ACLU has been fighting this sort of thing in the work place for some time.
Here is an article from the ACLU on the subject: http://www.aclu.org/library/pbr2.html
When you hack a server you do give up all rights to privacy.
Besides, it's perfectly acceptable to log any and all activity on your server. If it happens that the h4X0rz set up a mini-IRC server on your server, well, it's fair game.
The flaw in your phone usage scenario is that in the instance of using the phone, you asked permission first. THAT is invasion of privacy because you had permission to use the phone and the host decided to listen in/record. That is a private conversation and the host has no reason to be listening. In this case, it's like you break in to someone's house, pick up the phone and place a phone call while sifting through their possessions to see if there is anything worth stealing.
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You are speaking to a man who has injured himself. Pass me the medicaid benefit application. Holding it down. Taking my time. Municipal girl on the end of the line. Tell me my numbers. Send me some batteries. Stay out of sight, out of mind. The whole world is going to believe you get what you pay for. The first taste is free.
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01-04-2002 08:01 AM |
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crazy_wacky
Dr. Lovesyrup
Registered: Dec 2001
Location:
Posts: 275 |
I am in complete agreement.
I was simply trying to come up with some argument in favor of the h4x0rs privacy.
But in reality, there isn't one.
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01-04-2002 08:24 AM |
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35962 |
quote:
Originally posted by SocialParasite
When you hack a server you do give up all rights to privacy.
This is an interesting point. It seems to imply that rights are surrendered before a court finds you guilty of hacking.
But I am sure that unless used by law enforcement officials this has to be legal.
Over here, a TV show left a car in a high crime area to get footage of it being stolen (they didn't leave it unlocked or anything, just parked it) and that was deemed to be OK. The TV station gave the evidence to the police and they used it against the theives.
Bowmore is of course right that entrapment applies to law-enforcement but I can't see that even if the police used this 'honeypot' that they could be entrapping anyone; if the hooker offers sex for sale to a policeman who is there, she is not being entrapped I thought? Only if the policeman asks for sex in exchange for cash and she agrees, I thought, so that she can claim that the policeman induced her to commit the crime of soliciting. Here, law enforcement might say that they were protecting some innocent person by giving the criminals a server to hack where no real harm would be caused, and incidentally gaining information, but of course they would need a warrant the same as they would for any invasion of privacy (so at least there is some control over the removal of rights prior to conviction in court of law).
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I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of
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01-04-2002 12:18 PM |
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splAt
Usually Courteous
Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 1606 |
quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
This is an interesting point. It seems to imply that rights are surrendered before a court finds you guilty of hacking.
No rights are surrendered. They didn't have a right to or permission to use these computers to communicate privately (or to use them in any other way) in the first place.
quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
but of course they would need a warrant the same as they would for any invasion of privacy (so at least there is some control over the removal of rights prior to conviction in court of law).
There is no way anybody could reasonable argue that they have a right to privacy in how they illegally use somebody else's computer.
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A world without nuclear weapons would be less stable and more dangerous for all of us.
Last edited by splAt on 01-04-2002 at 12:53 PM
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01-04-2002 12:47 PM |
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified
Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35962 |
quote:
Originally posted by splAt
No rights are surrendered. They didn't have a right to or permission to use these computers to communicate privately (or to use them in any other way) in the first place.
There is no way anybody could reasonable argue that they ha
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