Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 12544

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f.../posts?page=390

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26383

To me, the whole statue thing is a very interesting controversy, partly because I'm fairly conflicted over it myself.

I am by no means a fan of political correctness, to be sure. But I'm also not going to rail on something simply BECAUSE it is embraced by the PC movement, which I think many are doing in this specific case.

For the limeys or whoever, the debate is that the statue is one that is depicting the moment when 3 caucasion firemen raised an American flag (taken from a nearby yaht) at the WTC site shortly after the cleanup began. The statue makers opted that instead of trying to make it 100% accurate that they will make one of the firemen hispanic, one white, and one black. Opponents of this move (and there are MANY) say that this represents historical revisionism, proponents say that it is meant not to act as a photograph, but instead to represent what the raising of the flag itself represented--patriotism in the face of extreme adversity--particularly exalting the resiliency of the firefighters despite so many of them--of all races--dying in the disaster.

I see both points, and oddly enough, I agree with both of them pretty much entirely.

I suppose to me the question comes down to: what is the purpose of the statue (and what should the purpose of the statue be).

And I don't generally think that statues like this are meant to be 100% accurate representations of history. This is not a statue so much as a monument. A monument to these three guys raising a flag? Primae Facially, yes, but not in spirit. To me it is a monument of what that action represented, and thus, you could say it is a representational monument, not meant to be something as simple as an identical re-enactment, but rather as something that captures the spirit of the moment. I'm not saying that as fluffy rhetoric either; to me that is the core of the question. It is more art than it is documentation in that sense. To some degree the same argument could be put to movies based on historical events (hell, even movies based on books when you get right down to it). Is it more important that every facet of the event is accounted for, or is it more important to capture the "essence" of the moment, even if that means taking some dramatic license to do so?

Of course, whether or not either version of the statue would "less" capture the essence of the moment versus the other is of course at the heart of the debate, but I'm getting to that. And one which I think neither side has effectively answered.

Again, I understand both sides, and agree with both for the most part. However, in what ways does taking dramatic license and putting in minorities at all lessen the essence of the moment it is representing? Why is it important to keep it as being 3 white guys save for rebuffing a PC movement seemingly for the sake of it? I don't disagree with the stance, mind you, but I haven't seen it defended very well save for simple statements like "but it is revisionism!" or "but it's a PC thing and PC things suck!" or "that's not how it really happened!"

My response to that is: "so?"

And I haven't seen that effectively answered yet. n

I'm still torn on it myself. Frankly, the statue will mean the same to me either way. I wouldn't raise a ruckus about it if it were 100% accurate or if it were fudged to make a point; both would represent the resiliency of patriotism and the firefighters' sacrifices to me.

However, my question is why wouldn't it do the same for you if it were altered?

For the record, I'm not making a point so much as I think people on BOTH sides need to examine their opinions on this rather than reverting to knee-jerk and shallow reactions.

Convince me.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10178

yes, i've heard about that on the radio all week (im a talk radio addict). political correctedness is shit, and minorities should be ashamed and outraged the self appointed leaders that represent them force such things like this to take place while preaching equality. maybe at one point they were needed, but now minority rights groups have run out of things to bitch about so rather than disbanding theyve become extremists, and dont help their 'cause' whatsoever, infact rather than promoting segregation and equality they are seperating races and giving bigots fuel.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10178

"Frankly, the statue will mean the same to me either way. I wouldn't raise a ruckus about it if it were 100% accurate or if it were fudged to make a point"

Frankly, i'd prefer they didn't even make the fucking thing. It's sure to cost the public a hundred grand or two, or three, or four, or... and it means absolutely nothing to me, and im sure it means nothing to most americans.

"if it were fudged to make a point"
what point would it be making? that we are so tolerant we'll do anything including altering history to prove how tolerant we are (and to keep the lobbyists off our back)? Does forcing division on racial boundries prove we have no racial boundries? if we have no racial boundries why did anyone even notice the race of the 3 men?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: US
Posts: 3532

A white guy, a black guy, and a hispanic guy... how PC is that?? What about all of the Asians or the Native Americans or the Arabians (what about women?!! :P ) I see both sides, it is a toss up, very tough decision. They could just make the statues out of bronze, that way no one would know what color they are, and everyone could use their imagination.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26383

How does including a spic and a nigger re-enforce racial divisions?

I mean, racial divisions ALREADY exist. Were we so much a color blind society that we didn't even notice that no minorities were included, I would agree with you. But the fact that minorities felt offended and I can't find any good reason why whites should be, and thus when minorities were included whites protested, indicates to me that the problem might be white people's and not minorities, in which case who is re-inforcing racial divisions here?

(and I know full well that there are a fair amount of minorities are opposed to this, but you're making the point, and I suspect that A. a greater percentage of whites support this than minorities, by a lot, and B. almost all minorities who oppose this don't do so on the grounds that it supports racism).

And of course the case could be made that the whole point of the statue is to represent Americans coming together in support of the country, in which case us trying to prove how tolerant we are and "re-inforcing racial boundaries" is a moot point. Surely adding Americans who have had differences in the past coming together makes the point more effectivly than having 3 similar people with no historical American grievances against each other would.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26383

quote:

---

Originally posted by Lu
A white guy, a black guy, and a hispanic guy... how PC is that?? What about all of the Asians or the Native Americans or the Arabians (what about women?!! :P )

---

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26383

If you can't tell, I am pushing this debate, because I think it is an important (and interesting) one; not because of the statue but because of the core issues and the knee-jerk reactions on both sides.

And billgerat, when did I get more liberal than you?

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 18490

I refuse to sign such a petition.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

The pinnacle of Failbot technology.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: WDM, IA
Posts: 2963

I signed. Heard about it all week on Mancow.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 18490

quote:

---

Originally posted by The Wraith
I signed. Heard about it all week on Mancow.

---

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

The pinnacle of Failbot technology.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35561

I believe that the statue wsa paid for by the owner of the building that the New York Fire Department have their headquarters in. Seems to me that they can have any piece of art that they have paid for, to be honest.

If it is a matter for anyone else beyond that, I would say that it is for the FIre Department only (and they agreed to this; now that the building's owners have spent the cash on it with the agreement of the Fire Department, presumably they can put it up? Are they erecting it on their own property?).

Like I sais before, I would prefer the fireman facially indistinct and the flag in good detail, but too much culture makes you gay (*looks at new culture point that has appeared with interest*).

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 182

Considering I can't see the picture on that page, how in the hell can you tell whether one of the statues is black or hispanic? Don't they make single-color statues anymore? Pretty much every statue I've EVER seen has been stone color, or painted the same color. Think of the statue of the soldiers raising the flag in Washington, DC. They're a decidedly greenish color. You don't see people throwing shit fits over that. And you know why? Because it's non-denominational. Honestly I don't give a shit how it happened, because I didn't even know it DID happen.

Actually I wouldn't have given a shit even if I did know at the time, because I have a problem with the way the country suddenly becomes patriotic, flag-waving robots any time their security is threatened. They don't really have all this American pride. They only have it when some disaster happens, and they do it so that someone can pretend that everything's okay just because they have a flag, and that they've been happily satisfied with the state of living conditions and social situations in the country and government the whole time they've been living here. The flood of patriotism is media driven, and it's media that focuses the attention on how suddenly great, just, and fair our government is. It's "Wag the Dog" all over again. Granted, the US is big and powerful and free and full of justice (when it wants to be) and democracy and happy rainbows and unicorns and all that fun stuff. But we're also very stupid when it comes to our reaction to the unexpected. This PC statue is a perfect example of that stupidity, and also a perfect example of how the faux patriotism in the US runs rampant because the vast majority of US citizens are, quite bluntly, programmed robots.

The media took a terrorist bombing and turned it into a fucking circus.

Last edited by Hail Brak on 01-18-2002 at 10:56 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 9144

quote:

---

Originally posted by Dingle
if we have no racial boundries why did anyone even notice the race of the 3 men?

---

Wise words. The Dinglemeister has spoken

Looks like the petition link has a broken image for the statue so here's another. I really can't tell who's race is what and frankly couldnt care less.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 12544

quote:

---

Originally posted by Paint CHiPs


And billgerat, when did I get more liberal than you?

---

Probably when you became Donald Duck's rape fantasy?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 18823

If you want PC then one of them should be a woman, don't you think?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35561

quote:

---

Originally posted by wonderaz
If you want PC then one of them should be a woman, don't you think?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 7236

i see both arguments. They both make valid points. But at the end of the day it seems a bit petty and insensitive to the statues purpose doesn't it? When people look at it in years to come will the conversation go like this:

'Look at that statue, a disgrace to the men that fought to save lives!'
'Yes I agree, travesty it should be pulled down!'


or like this?


'Look at the statue'
'Yes this place has an deeply profound affect on me when I come here and think about it'

I go for the second one everytime.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: my mother's bloody womb
Posts: 7126

i think it's beautiful. it certainly has a profound effect on me.

and i just wish that people would get this angry over the huge historical inaccuracies that are in the textbooks we give our children in school. seems to me that those are far more dangerous to our society than any PC statue.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Zion
Posts: 4444

Here's an interesting question: The three men portrayed here know who they are. Which two do you replace? How do they feel about being the person who was actually there and being replaced in the name of P.C.?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Albany, NY
Posts: 182

Well it's nice to see that the homosexual population has been represented nicely. That one on the left is SUCH a queen. *flips his wrist*

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 12544

quote:

---

Originally posted by morgana
i think it's beautiful. it certainly has a profound effect on me.

and i just wish that people would get this angry over the huge historical inaccuracies that are in the textbooks we give our children in school. seems to me that those are far more dangerous to our society than any PC statue.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged