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For all those who hate conceptual art!

Conceptual art is driving me to abstraction: says ICA chairman

The chairman of one of Britain's most radical art institutions has denounced conceptual art as a mixture of con trick and hype and said Tracey Emin, its biggest female star, "couldn't think her way out of a paper bag".

Ivan Massow, who chairs the Institute of Contemporary Arts (ICA) in London, also makes a vitriolic sideswipe at Sir Nicholas Serota, director of the Tate Gallery and chairman of the Turner prize judges, whom he calls a "cultural czar" dominating British art from his crystal Kremlin.

Last year's Turner prize, Mr Massow added, was so bad, it was just waiting to be upstaged by Madonna, who handed out the prize.

Yet long before the Turner prize, the ICA was the bastion of everything radical in art, and runs a leading art prize, Becks Futures. The Becks prize generally has far more painting entries than the Turner Prize, which is dominated by conceptual art.

Mr Massow, a Labour- supporting financial services entrepreneur, is not in the usual tradition of ICA chairmen. But he makes his attack with his ICA hat on. Writing in today's issue of the New Statesman, Mr Massow, says: "Yes, for a brief moment, concept art brought the UK a reputation for being cutting-edge (and Tony Blair duly jumped on the bandwagon, stuffing No 10 with works by [Damien] Hirst, Rachel Whiteread and Angus Fairhurst) but, having made its point, broken the mould and, for a while, raced ahead of the international arts scene, the British arts world is now in danger of disappearing up its own arse. Most concept art I see now is pretentious, self- indulgent, craftless tat that I wouldn't accept even as a gift. It is the product of over- indulged, middle-class (barely concealed behind mockney accents), bloated egos who patronise real people with fake understanding."

In an attack on Sir Nicholas, he says: "In the Soviet Union, the official art was socialist realism. Working in any other mode was considered – and treated as – an act of subversion. In Britain, too, we have an official art, concept art, and it performs an equally valuable service. It is endorsed by Downing Street, sponsored by big business and selected and exhibited by cultural tsars such as the Tate's Nicholas Serota who dominate the arts scene from their crystal Kremlins ...

"As chairman of the ICA, an institute that fervently champions concept art, I suppose I must be considered a member, or at least a 'stakeholder' (in Millbank-speak), in the cartel that has organised this monopoly. I must confess that, for a number of years, I've had a nagging voice in my head telling me that it's all hype and frequently no substance." Mr Massow goes on to damn Emin with faint praise, saying he enjoys one of her most famous works, before casting doubt on her intelligence. He says: "Before uttering the unthinkable, I'd like to say that I find Tracey Emin's bed sufficiently clever (although possibly Charles Saatchi was the mastermind of this installation – anyone who has met Emin knows that she couldn't think her way out of a paper bag)."

The future for modern art is bleak, he concludes, saying: "We've now reached a situation where a new generation of art students go to college with the idea of becoming rich and famous like their idols Emin and Damien Hirst, to act like rock stars instead of aspiring to artistic excellence through a tangible medium."

He said talented artists were forced to ditch their talent and "reinvent themselves as creators of video installations or a machine that produces foam in the middle of a room".

Sir Nicholas Serota's spokeswoman said the Tate director had no comment. A spokeswoman at Tracey Emin's gallery, White Cube, said: "We have seen what Mr Massow says, but we are not giving any comment."

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This made me laugh so much it hurt

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I hope that Serota responds to this, I love it when the artfairys fall out.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
[b]
He said talented artists were forced to ditch their talent and "reinvent themselves as creators of video installations or a machine that produces foam in the middle of a room".

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quote:

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Originally posted by Inky
But often, with conceptual art, the viewer is left feeling stupid, which i think is a great shame.

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Isn't the Turner award thing the event where the KLF guys gave away all the money? I'll check for the link...

also, i think a lot of conceptual art just tries to alienate people (that "stupid" feeling) so they will consider the artist some kind of misunderstood genius, when he's really just a guy that knocked over a plumbing fixture or something.

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Originally posted by Spooky


while I agree with this sentiment when its expressed this way. Doesn't it beg the question that art should make one think? That is important too surely?

not necessarily. there is some art i really enjoy because it make me think. it may not be something I want to put on my wall at home, but it challenges me intellectually. Other things are merely aesthetically pleasing, nice colors and shapes and so on. It's important to communicate. and by that i mean, tell me something, make me feel something, challenge me on some level beyond me scartching my head and thinking wtf?

i said: "One shouldn't have to have a degree in art to be able to appreciate work."

and you responded:
Again I agree but at the same time, many conceptual pieces are just that. The concept is left to the critic and viewer because often the artist has just 'thrown some shit together'


not sure you really adressed my point at all.

*scratches head and goes "wtf?"*

Is thinking its shit and worthless not a communication in itself really?


absolutely, it's a communication, but is that the one the artist is putting out there? do you think most artists create work hoping that someone will question it's validity? I'm sure a few do. That doesn't make it art. (it doesn't not make it art either)

WTF is true. But did anyone else have the idea before that person?

does it matter? just because i have an original idea doesn't mean i should put it on a gallery wall and call myself an artist.

Don't get me wrong. Some conceptual art is shit, but some of it is fucking brilliant. Like Damien Hirst's sheep in formeldehyde is brilliant, but apparently, according to my art degree spouse his paintings are shit.

she said his paintings are shit not his formaldehyde sheep what does she think of his sheep?

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quote:

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Originally posted by WastedPotential
Isn't the Turner award thing the event where the KLF guys gave away all the money? I'll check for the link...

also, i think a lot of conceptual art just tries to alienate people (that "stupid" feeling) so they will consider the artist some kind of misunderstood genius, when he's really just a guy that knocked over a plumbing fixture or something.

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.

Last edited by Goatboy on 01-18-2002 at 10:37 PM

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http://www.klf.de/articles/index.php3?article=54

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quote:

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Originally posted by Goatboy
.

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to call them my heroes would be an understatement.

The K Prize, a response to the Turner Prize.

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oooo flame war over art with an artist

quote:

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not necessarily. there is some art i really enjoy because it make me think. it may not be something I want to put on my wall at home, but it challenges me intellectually. Other things are merely aesthetically pleasing, nice colors and shapes and so on. It's important to communicate. and by that i mean, tell me something, make me feel something, challenge me on some level beyond me scartching my head and thinking wtf?

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true, but scratching ones head and thinking wtf? does not mean that all will. And I think that is important too. My Dad has ugly Constable plates on the wall (you know this) I scratch my head and say WTF? he says that they are great. Another analogy; what is kitch for you is not neccessarily gonna be kitch for me is it? Same principle at work.

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not sure you really adressed my point at all.

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ok my point here was that the viewer decides on its value to them personally. That could be wtf? or some 200 page diatribe on its aesthetic value. Either way it made them think about it even if they felt they couldn't satisfactorily find any intepretation/appreciation. That WTF? feeling is in itself an appreciation, particularly given that most concept stuff is having a pop at the traditional way of things. Its purpose is to make you say WTF? more often that not.

quote:

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*scratches head and goes "wtf?"*

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now now, sarcasm does not become you

quote:

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absolutely, it's a communication, but is that the one the artist is putting out there?

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In the case of this years Turner Prize winner. YES.

quote:

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do you think most artists create work hoping that someone will question it's validity?

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I think, and obviously this is generalise, but I think the majoirty of conceptual artists at least do yes. Isn't that the point. To challenge the traditional ideas and stick two fingers (flip the bord in the US context) at the establishment? If anything conceptual art is the art worlds punk rock only 20 years after McClaren and Westwood did it in the music and fashion world respectively.

quote:

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does it matter? just because i have an original idea doesn't mean i should put it on a gallery wall and call myself an artist.

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why not? If you have the backing of some financially rick nocb like Charles Saatchi then do it I say. Milk your piss taking for all its worth. Its the height of British irony in this context

quote:

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she said his paintings are shit not his formaldehyde sheep what does she think of his sheep?

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shes i the bath and I asked her:

quote:

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It was groundbreaking at the time, but it was only as good as the fact that peoples [ie non art peoples] knowledge of anatomy is so poor because anatomy, especially internal anatopmy is very aesthetically beautiful. It was also a very intelligent use of space.

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You don't know how happy I was when she said this. We disagree on coneptual art alot

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BTW, the Kopyright Liberation Front are conceptual artists of the highest degree. They make cool tunes too

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Spooky
oooo flame war over art with an artist

we are NOT having a flame war you silly twanger!



In the case of this years Turner Prize winner. YES.


so the winner was intentionally trying to make us say wtf? what were the other contestants doing? making us say wtf about art is nothing new, nor is it even original.

I think, and obviously this is generalise, but I think the majoirty of conceptual artists at least do yes. Isn't that the point. To challenge the traditional ideas and stick two fingers (flip the bord in the US context) at the establishment? If anything conceptual art is the art worlds punk rock only 20 years after McClaren and Westwood did it in the music and fashion world respectively.


actually, if i am not incorrect (i always fell asleep in art history) Malcolm MacLaren was an art student who was influenced by a number of different art movements such a situationism, which was influenced my futurism and dadism ( i am sure I am going to mess up my ism's) but the futurists were probably the art world's punk rock...what is happening today seems to me a regurgitation of other radical anti-art movements, with a twist...it attempts to be highbrow.

by the way, it's give the finger over here, not flip the "bord". i know you meant bird, but your typo made me laugh.

*sigh*

i miss art school.

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OK i funked up it seems on the punk thinng. But I have been told on good authority that conceptual art is BritPop.

Time for you to google me thinks

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If I join in on this, then can we have trinational art degree wars, pleasepleaseplease? (YAY!)

I declare, Elly Mae, that's conceptional!

If Ms Emin doesn't take advantage of Mr Massow's "couldn't think her way out of a paper bag" statement by wearing a paper bag on her head for a year as an artistic statement, then well...well...she's retarded. Or the opposite, but in the grand scheme of the universe, does it really matter?

My conceptual statement lies below. I blatantly concepted it (or even conceived it) from the flowing challenge to originality that is Wasted Potential.

__________________

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
OK i funked up it seems on the punk thinng. But I have been told on good authority that conceptual art is BritPop.

Time for you to google me thinks

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quote:

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Originally posted by Inky
no, go on, explain, how is conceptual art like britpop?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky


oh shit!

well Britpop is a wave of music that hit the UK in the 90s. Conceptual Art riode on the back of that music movement. Britpo examples are:

Blur
The Bluetones
The Stone Roses
Dodgy
EMF

and others.

Basically most of the YBA's (Young British Artists) responsible for the conceptual art movement were inline with most of the Britpop musicians. Hence the fact that Alex James from Blur has many Damien Hirts in his house painted for him personally because they all drink together in Soho.

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OK I made a mistake. The conepotual art we are talking about in this thread is British, that is what I am referrig to. And arguably Britain was 'leading the way' a few years ago.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
OK I made a mistake. The conepotual art we are talking about in this thread is British, that is what I am referrig to. And arguably Britain was 'leading the way' a few years ago.

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well i am talking about conceptual art in general! As I think we both were....hehe

come on spook, this is a forum with international posters, how can you be so nationalistic?

anyhow, i am curious as to which British artists were leading the way...

i do have to take my laundry to the laundromat, it's actually a conceptual performance piece I am premiering, it's called, very simply, "CLEAN"

I am considering applying for a Canada Council Grant....

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Both Whiteread and Hirst were shing lights in the darkness of conceptual art as we know it today. And this post was about the British artists in the first place so :P

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