Registered: Jul 2000
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First:

MMR Vaccine: aka Measles/Mumps/Rubella. Super duper thriple shit. Been used in America for about 20 yeasr so I hear. And most of the industrial world for the same time. Only been used in the UK i recent years and now there is a big scandal about it possibly causing autism etc etc. Has this subject been and gone in AMerica already? And are parents here worrying over nothing?

BBC

Second:

The Fifth Ammendment: How does this actually work? I heard today that in the congressional Enron hearing the top bods from Enron all took the fifth and didnt answer questions becauuse it will incirminate them. Does this mean that they can do the same in court? If they do the same in court is a jury allowed to take the action as a admission of guilt by proxy?

This second question is based on the fact that over here they changed the law on the right to silence so that you still had the right, but if you stayed silent and said 'no comment' the jury could make assumptions about your guilt. Particularly if you said 'no comment' continually in interviews and then produced a lock tight alibi three months down the line at a trial.

So basically how does the 'fifth' work? I alwasy thught it meant that you could take if you feared you would incirmnate yourself for some other crime. e.g you are in court for murder and you know you were doing a bank robery on the day of the murder. You take the fifth so not to get done for the other crime. I am guessing I am utterly wrong on this though. Enlighten me please.

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I hadnt heard that.
My son had the shot when he was 6 mos(?) old , I think. Sometime in his first year, anyway. I believe I did as well, but Im not sure.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
First:

MMR Vaccine: aka Measles/Mumps/Rubella. Super duper thriple shit. Been used in America for about 20 yeasr so I hear. And most of the industrial world for the same time. Only been used in the UK i recent years and now there is a big scandal about it possibly causing autism etc etc. Has this subject been and gone in AMerica already? And are parents here worrying over nothing?

They gave me a lot of paper work with all the info on all the shots my babies were getting, I read them first, and the autism thought is a recent concern and being investigated, though I believe its about the same odds as getting polio from the polio shot.



Second:

The Fifth Ammendment: How does this actually work? I heard today that in the congressional Enron hearing the top bods from Enron all took the fifth and didnt answer questions becauuse it will incirminate them. Does this mean that they can do the same in court? If they do the same in court is a jury allowed to take the action as a admission of guilt by proxy?

[/B]

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Last edited by euphorbia on 02-07-2002 at 07:01 PM

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Keith- MMR shot, Sept. 16, 1998. 1 year old.

Me-MMR shot, Dec. 16, 1978. 1 year old. By the way it's listed, I cant tell if it was 1 big shot, or 3 at once for me. Probably the same as what Keith got, though.

I wouldnt be concerned about the shot causing autism. The instance is probably as high as the natural occurance. They just need something to blame it on. What kind of research has been done on it?
As far as I know, medical science doesnt have any definite "patterns of instance/causes of" in their possession. Id say it was a far cry to blame a shot for it, if they hardly understand the disorder itself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by karen
MMR snip

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yes, I heard that it has been in widespread use in the US for years and many schools require the vaccine to have been given before accepting children. Until recently we had separate injections (two for each disease totally six). Apparently the anti-lobby over here has very little more than anecdotal evidence about its affects, and alot of the time MMR has not caused problems but merely exasperated already existing condiitons.

I never had any vaccination as a child other than polio. I had to catch measles, mumps and rubella instead to get my vaccine! Hence the fact that I am partially deaf.

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MMR is the big story today in the UK btw.

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American Medical Association: "Current scientific data do not support causal association between autism and the MMR vaccine"

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/1824-2080.html

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quote:

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Originally posted by euphorbia
fifth ammendment stuff

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky


yes, I heard that it has been in widespread use in the US for years and many schools require the vaccine to have been given before accepting children. Until recently we had separate injections (two for each disease totally six). Apparently the anti-lobby over here has very little more than anecdotal evidence about its affects, and alot of the time MMR has not caused problems but merely exasperated already existing condiitons.

I never had any vaccination as a child other than polio. I had to catch measles, mumps and rubella instead to get my vaccine! Hence the fact that I am partially deaf.

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quote:

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Originally posted by missphinx
American Medical Association: "Current scientific data do not support causal association between autism and the MMR vaccine"

http://www.ama-assn.org/ama/pub/article/1824-2080.html

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quote:

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Originally posted by missphinx
American Medical Association: "Current scientific data do not support causal association between autism and the MMR vaccine"

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I just wonder if thrity years down the line we will have a thalydimide circumstance again or not. I mean we (UK) and Australia and everyone were saying it was safe while you guy were saying it was not. It turned out you guys were right. I just hope the reverse doesnt happen with this jab. That would be really sad

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The fifth amendment:

Amendment V

No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.

also:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/data/...ent05/07.html#1

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/wo...000/1801948.stm

Basically you have a right not to give testimony that could implicate you in anything, which some people think is beyond the original scope of the amendment.

I have been looking for some jury instructions on the fifth amendment, where a judge would tell a jury what weight to give to a fifth amendment assertion, but I can't find any at the moment.

D

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
I just wonder if thrity years down the line we will have a thalydimide circumstance again or not. I mean we (UK) and Australia and everyone were saying it was safe while you guy were saying it was not. It turned out you guys were right. I just hope the reverse doesnt happen with this jab. That would be really sad

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I couldnt imagine it would.
I mean, think about it. If *I* got the shot, then most kids in the 70's wouldve gotten it as well.
Im 24, now. I have NO severe medical problems.
-Very mild asthma, that has gotten better over time.
-Very mild allergies, also have gotten better over time; probably the two are related.
-had a benign cyst removed from my throat when I was seven years old. But my dad had it too... and im sure he didnt get the shot in the 1940's. Besides, Im glad I got that surgery. it made my voice huskier
-I can say this now, as I am no longer worried... but I was diagnosed with a type of cancer 4 or 5 years ago. I never really told anyone, including family. I didnt go back to the same doctor(because Im dumb. heh.). I had a few recurring problems, but they have since(within the last year or so) completely disappeared. Im still not going back to that doctor(again, because Im dumb. dont try to talk me into it. wont work.). As far as Im concerned, It has gone into remission or disappeared on its own.
Regardless, I have had nothing TOTALLY SEVERE AND UNTREATABLE(it was a very treatable cancer) in my entire life.

And to my credit, I have a very resilient system. I recover from sickness very quickly.

If all the other American kids from the 70's had that same shot(likely), then we'd have a VERY high instance of medical problems among us. Even further into it... YES certain cancer rates, etc have gone up.... but so has:
A. the population
B. the amount of pollution
C. the amount of technology usage(Tvs, computers, phones, cell phones, etc)
D. other "innovative" factors in daily living

Those alone could account for most, if not ALL of it. I dont understand and dont see where they could POSSIBLY come up with the MMR/autism connection. Especially if they understand autism as little as they do.
Making someone more susceptable to autism is one thing. And really only possible if the shot affects brain patterns/consistency in some way. I would *think* that they covered that when researching the drug for safety, however. Is there a tangible study that you can find on brain patterns and the shot? If so, then I suppose the possibility is there. otherwise, I just dont see the connection.

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oh i know karen i realise that. but thalydimide didnt effect everyone either, that was my only point. I doubt there is a deifnte link, althogh I do think there may be a catylyst link for some children, but that is, unfortunately, something that can happen from taking aspirin too.

I am not a doctor so I wont even begin to try and talk authortatively on it. The only thing I could ever do was look statisticallt at trends of illness and condition in relation to vaccinations.

Either way, its still a huge story here that will prolly be around for a while yet.

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One more thing...
If there IS a connection between the shot and autism(and aforementioned brain pattern/autism connection data), wouldnt it also be likely to make OUR children(the second generation receiving said shot) even more likely?
I suppose if the connection is there, it may be worth studying. As it stands now, I have seen no real problems with it. Im not a scientist, nor do I research in either area; but I am a "specimen" of sorts, as is my son.
They really cant do anything about it right now. The risk of removing the shot from the system entirely far outweighs any possibility of autism. They should just study, and see what happens from there. If there does prove to be problems, then like all medical breakthroughs, eventually will find a better alternative.

Biologic science is a live and learn area. We are all specimens.

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Sorry Im not touching the other question you posed(ammendment thing). My true love is biology and medicine.
If I didnt have such a weak stomach for such things, I wouldve gone into biology/medicine instead of fire science.

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http://www.whale.to/vaccines/measles11.htm
Statistics on risks from measles

It's not a big news story here atm. I did see a 'special episode' of ER where an unvaccinated child died from the measles. It happens. Kids can die from this, so it's a give and take.

I'd want more concrete info before I decided.

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dont worry about not touching the other one karen. The argument here is that some parents want to be allowed to give their children the separate vaccinnations for each disease rather than the triple one because, right or wrongly placed, fears.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky
dont worry about not touching the other one karen. The argument here is that some parents want to be allowed to give their children the separate vaccinnations for each disease rather than the triple one because, right or wrongly placed, fears.

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quote:

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Originally posted by karen
I dont see why they cant have the seperate

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quote:

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Originally posted by Spooky


NHS. Money. MMR is cheaper. And the government does the vaccinations for free.

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Then they should research, and shut up and get it.
or research, shutup and hit Mum up for some dough so they can get the others.

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So far I'm not autistic... but when that shot was first administered to me in the early eighties, I got a part of a "bad batch." I went into convulsions and started turning blue.

Fun fun.

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Having only briefly scanned Sphinxy's link (just to assuage my confidence), I've read a few articles here and there about it when I used to work with autistic kids, and from my understanding there has been maybe 1 or 2 studies that show any causal link between MMR and autism, and a vast ocean of studies that show no statistical signifigance whatsoever.

So from what I know which is admittedly limited, I think it's just anecdotal more than anything else. There was some controversy, mostly within the scientific community, in the late 90s regarding this, but the controversy as I recall was surrounding a few studies that showed a link, the controversy being that the scientific community as a whole thought those few studies were complete shit. It never became a political issue or even a major media one here for that reason.

My guess would be some groups on