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I was just reading Dave Pell’s column in Next Draft (http://www.nextdraft.com) for Monday 8 April 2002. In it he quoted the counter-terrorism policy of the State Dept, which reads:
First, make no concessions to terrorists and strike no deals. Second, bring
terrorists to justice for their crimes. Third, isolate and apply pressure on states that sponsor terrorism to force them to change their behavior. Fourth, bolster the counter-terrorism capabilities of those countries that work with the U.S. and require assistance.
Pell was wondering at the calls from President Bush for the Israelis to pull out of Palestinian-controlled areas in light of his past rhetoric against governments that harbor and sponsor terrorists. What struck me about the column was the fact that it is generally accepted that Israel needs to pull out in order for peace to be negotiated, and that a negotiated peace is what we ought to seek. The West no longer has the will to wage war to conclusion.

I’m not saying that I wouldn’t favor a negotiated settlement myself. But I sense a desire in this country for us to act unilaterally and let other countries align themselves as they see fit once and for all. I think it is more of an unspoken urge than anything else. We are offended at how people perceive us, and we want to punish someone. We grew up believing ourselves the greatest power on earth and the rightful leaders of world civilization. We tend to get a bit bewildered that others don’t share that view of us. But what I’m getting at goes beyond who’s right or wrong. What I am saying is that we are no longer warriors. The people with whom we contend have not traveled quite as far as we have down that path of dubious progress. They don’t worry as much about whether they are being reasonable or acting upon consensus.

The world is governed by force. That is an uncomfortable truth for most of us. The people who founded this country sought to impose their will upon the land and hold dominion over it indigenous tribes notwithstanding. I don’t believe that we see ourselves in that light any longer, for better or worse. We have had it taught out of us by people who were frightened of fighting and sought to save us from it. The problem with that is that elsewhere quite a different lesson was being learned, and now we find ourselves fighting for political and, perhaps, cultural survival. And we have taught ourselves that it’s not even correct or appropriate to talk about that fact. The language itself smacks of racist xenophobia. But we are at war with a bunch of racist xenophobes who want nothing less than our annihilation. They have to want that, because they see our culture as imperialistic and subversive to their own. They recognize that, if they do not act quickly, they will inevitably become westernized – as indeed they will. And no, they could not destroy us, even if they hit an hundred tall buildings. That is because what they are fighting is about as nebulous and hard to pin down as what we are fighting.

And as they become westernized, we – we being the descendants of those European exploiters who shot first and asked later – will also be leavened by that same global urban culture that panders to the lowest common denominator. That is part of what is so regrettable about this war. We are fighting a war of extermination against a bunch of lunatics acting on an impulse emanating from deep within. We are sending technicians to kill off another part of our collective past in order to move forward. Our consumerist media culture is doing the same thing to us now, and it is a by-product of our globalization. But it is a sad passing in some respects. We will win this war with technology and industry. And we will kill off another vestige of our feral nature. Order prevails and we move forward, at least, if not upward.

So has the nature of war changed, or do we just not have the stomach for it? And is that a good thing in the long run? Is peace for half a generation the best that we can hope to achieve? I think perhaps even that is very optimistic.

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The world is governed by force. That is an uncomfortable truth for most of us.
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The world is governed by money.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That the rest of the world doesn't see themselves as sacrifices for the "way of life" of the first world.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That making sure the exploited remain exploitable for the powerful and the wealthy is the goal of most counter-terrorism programs.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That both democratic and humanitarian goals are almost universally sacrificed in the pursuit of this goal.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That most of the exploitation has roots in first world corporations that benefit from the seizing of land, violence that represses popular interest, divertion of money that was supposed to go to aid the populations, cheap access to resources, poor labour and environmental protections, and corrupt governments at the disposal of the merchants.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That the press is owned by the same corporations that benefit from the violence and the exploitation; such as in Israel where the most powerful lobby for Israeli interest is the military industry, due to the regular orders that come through the policy of Israeli support, and one of the main military suppliers is GE.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That terrorism is a miniscule threat compared to toxic pollution, environmental destruction, poverty, access to clean drinking water, and disease.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That American Culture emphasises the trivial and glorifies stupidity in order to keep people from thinking too much about what is really going on in the world.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That we as a species do not have much time left.. That we have been left in the hands of people who's goals are completely determeined by the short term gain and will do NOTHING and care NOTHING about long term damage.
That's the uncomfortable truth.
That war is going to end. Either by cutting out the fucking stupidity of the expert opinions who believe in the myth of the short term vision, long term utopia; recognizing the common threats to us all while working towards a common benefit, or by extinction.
The human race will be just another casualty unless we change the way we do buisness / war.
That's the uncomfortable truth.

Last edited by Thimbles worth of opinion on 04-09-2002 at 01:07 AM

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I am greatly disappointed in Bush for withdraing his support of
Sharon's terrorist cleanup. He lost a lot of the respect that he had built up with me because he has appeared hesitant and inconsistent on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. I wish that he would just disregard the Arab fervor and go on about the business that he said we "would not waver" about.

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No, the world is governed by force, no matter with what motive you may list that wields it. So you're arguing sideways from what I'm saying, whether you're right or not. And, God, I hate the way you wrote that, but that's a matter of taste.

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And that, is part of the generational difference I'm talking about - the realization that war is barbaric and terrible and once embarked upon should be prosecuted with prejudice. And you shouldn't say things you don't mean.

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It's not Arab fevor. It's world fevor. All over Europe
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/art.../7/151454.shtml
Canada
http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2002/04/08/mideastdemo_020407
the whole world
http://www.cbc.ca/cp/world/020408/w040808.html
becuase of this kind of crap.
http://www.asylumnation.com/asylum/...&threadid=21928
Terrorists are not born. You can't wipe out terrorism unless you examine the causes. In most cases the causes for terrorism is a response to terrorism.
But the begining case, the initial cause from the days of yore for frightning someone, is control. Greed. Self oriented, survival of the fitest instinct. And if you believe that this is a fact of life, and that the powerful must excercise control over the weak, or that that the moral obligation of the powerful must be ignored in order to maintain that power, that way of life then there is no moral imperitive against terrorism.
Terrorism is acceptable for use against the strong by the weak, and the weak by the strong. If the strong suffer, too bad. That's the price you pay. If the weak are eliminated, too bad. That's the way it is. Survival of the fittest. Morality? Hogwash. Antiquaited concept. Dead in the womb. Savage Nature rules all.
But if you believe that the morality of ones actions should determine the means by which they defend power then there is no jsutification for terrorism or counter terrorism. It's not okay to be used by the powerful or the weak. It's unacceptable.
Bush deserves no respect. He is a vile human being who claims a moral basis for evil acts of terror and greed.
Sharon has no respect. He was and is a vile bully who has used superior firepower against weak opponents in Beruit, allows massacares and shows no empathy towards advasaries as human beings, which was the insufferable crime of the German Racist Nazis. These are not Palestinian people to him. These are rats that live in trash, and he is just employing the means of extermination.

Question. Are you purposely trying to bait, or do you really believe in these things?
This post was in response to Oxsan's..

Last edited by Thimbles worth of opinion on 04-09-2002 at 01:59 AM

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No, the world is governed by force, no matter with what motive you may list that wields it.
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Sorry I was argueing from the basis of what motivates force. These days it's money. Pure and plain.
Back in the days of empires it was land. You can still say it is to a great extent.
When the produce of the land became commodtized and the value of the produce became abstracted into currency, currency became the motivating force for maintaining control of labour, maintaining control of land, maintaining control of armies, etc...
Power equals money.
You could make an arguement about Ideals and Religion or family and national identity (and I admit the validity of that arguement) but in today's world, where we are told again and again that the measure of success is your salary, money is the motivator.
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And, God, I hate the way you wrote that, but that's a matter of taste.
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Can't please everybody

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quote:

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Originally posted by oxsan
I am greatly disappointed in Bush for withdraing his support of
Sharon's terrorist cleanup. ...

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And, for once, I didn't pen a word of what Swingfly just expressed.
Word's getting out.
Yay internet!

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Yeah TWOO and just think that it got all the way to Sweden. You should be proud.

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oxsan rules!

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Yeah TWOO and just think that it got all the way to Sweden. You should be proud.
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Sorry. Was that meant to be nice or insulting?
Cause I am proud. It's something to do with my astrological background. (Being a leo and all.)

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We don't create suicide bombers. Implying that denies them the dignity of being accountable for their actions if nothing else. My point is about the nature of war and how we view it. We no longer seek to destroy the opposition, but rather to understand them so as to make them happy so they won't make war on us anymore. I know that's overly simplistic, but it's not far off. Now that's not the way our armies wage war, but it's certainly become the way we do it as a society and culturally. And that change has taken place over the last couple of generations. Most of us no longer see the point in shedding blood simply retaliating when we are attacked. We just assume that the ultimate blame rests upon our own shoulders, so we want to put this behind us as quickly as possible.

You guys are arguing about who's right or wrong. I'm just talkin about whether we're prepared to fight a war in the same way that we used to think about it. Are we prepared to hate our enemy?

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oxsan rules!
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Isn't there a Clinton thread somewhere calling out your name?
Oh well, at least there's no half wit attempts to refute me anymore by said looney. If you can't win in substance try and make it up in style right? Can't fight the truth so you gotta slam the speaker right?
Keep dogging me hag. Keep throwing in the quick quips. Makes you look like a real winner.

But don't even try to enter a debate, because you don't have the tools. And you know it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by swingfly




Where does the terrorist grow up? In the refugee camps, almost exclusively

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quote:

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Originally posted by Thimbles worth of opinion
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oxsan rules!
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Isn't there a Clinton thread somewhere calling out your name?
Oh well, at least there's no half wit attempts to refute me anymore by said looney. If you can't win in substance try and make it up in style right? Can't fight the truth so you gotta slam the speaker right?
Keep dogging me hag. Keep throwing in the quick quips. Makes you look like a real winner.

But don't even try to enter a debate, because you don't have the tools. And you know it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by euphorbia



Oh and you might want to check your other thread for my part of the debate.

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Those refugee camps have existed for over a generation. That wouldn't have been the case if they were not pollitically useful to Israel's enemies. Those people were just as indigenous to the rest of the Trans-Jordan area as they were to the portion allotted to the Israelies. If they grew up in refugee camps, their Arab neighbors were just as complicitous in that fact as the Israelis. And for that matter, you can blame Stalin as well. The Soviets were instrumental in getting Israel established. They quickly changed their minds when they saw the political advantage change.

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And why would you defend the rationale of a suicide anyway?

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Once again, Mugtoe demonstrates what's possible when a person of intelligence moves beyond dogma and actually applies his knowledge to a situation in a creative way.

Why settle for taking a side when you can forecast where the whole fight is taking us? The first post in this thread is the best Israel post in any Asylum forum, I think. Two Culture points awarded.

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Love ya Muggie.

-m

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