A quick thought about free will

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squee
the amen break

Registered: Jul 2001
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A quick thought about free will

Phorbie just said something in another thread that made me think:

quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
people choose their master.

It seems to me that the extent of your free will is in choosing who, or what, will run your life.

For example, I can choose to be a holy man. But then my God is really running things.

Or I can choose cheap thrills, materialism, and so forth. But I hardly need to point out except to the most dimwitted among us how the things you own end up owning you.

(incidentally, to a Catholic, this is one of the fundamental ideas on salvation...choose God, or choose yourself, and then everything that happens afterwards is out of your hands).

I do, however, believe that we get to make such choices all the time. But we are limited in what we may choose among (although the nonspecific types would say we always have an unlimited range of options at any given time).

Just something running through my brain. Carry on.

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07-31-2002 08:31 PM

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quins
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I can only agree with you.

Yes, we do choose our master. Whether it be religion, work, family, spouse, alcohol, drugs.

Our previous choices dictate the choices that we are able to make in the present. However, I do believe we have the ability to work our way back to a track if we find we find ourselves on the wrong path.

Take the following diagram below as an example. Starting at the bottom point, each end of the "V" dictates a decision. The more decisions we make, the deeper we get in the cycle. If we wish to change directions without going back, it takes longer to get to the path we wish to be on, but the option is always there. It justs depends how far we have the will to go.

V V V V V V V V V V V
V V V V V V V V V V
V V V V V V V V V
V V V V V V V V
V V V V V V V
V V V V V V
V V V V V
V V V V
V V V
V V
V

(EDIT) picture the shape as a triangle, for some reason only half is showing up. DAMN!!!

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07-31-2002 09:16 PM

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Postmodgirl
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07-31-2002 10:24 PM

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toocrazycosmo
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Is something really your "master" when you can choose to reject it?

Forgive me, but the term implies a certain amount of control which is not innate in your list.

I choose my job...but it has no control to keep me there. If I want another job there is another one out there.

What drives your choices? Your innate sense of mortality? That what drives me to discard and prioritize certain options.

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08-01-2002 12:14 AM

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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by toocrazycosmo
Is something really your "master" when you can choose to reject it?

Forgive me, but the term implies a certain amount of control which is not innate in your list.

I choose my job...but it has no control to keep me there. If I want another job there is another one out there.

What drives your choices? Your innate sense of mortality? That what drives me to discard and prioritize certain options.

what ever drives your choices is your master. we can also master...even ourselves (which is probably hardest of all) Stigma, revenge, hate, love, lust, quest, money, regret, addiction all those things can be a person�s master for example if there is no discipline or moderation or much thought given leave the hunger for the object of desire then youre owned by it. I think learning to master yourself and acknowledging that you choose what masters you...and mastering it is ideal�.if that makes any sense to anyone but me and the little purple midgets in my head.

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08-01-2002 12:26 AM

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buddha's penis
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quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
if that makes any sense to anyone but me and the little purple midgets in my head.

you're lucky yours are little midgets. mine are fucking huge.

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08-01-2002 12:40 AM

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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by Buddha's Penis!

you're lucky yours are little midgets. mine are fucking huge.

show off

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08-01-2002 12:45 AM

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euphorbia
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edited cause Im not happy with the way it sounded...and no time to work it out right now.

Last edited by euphorbia on 08-01-2002 at 01:23 AM

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08-01-2002 12:50 AM

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buddha's penis
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i choose to master ba...
no, sorry. can't do it.
with all this recent talk of mastery, i am left confused. i can't think of anything at the moment that is a sort of controlling force in my life. i'm not sure how to take that, so i am going to keep trying.

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08-01-2002 01:03 AM

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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by Buddha's Penis!
i choose to master ba...

I was waiting for that...and it was still funny.

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08-01-2002 01:05 AM

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euphorbia
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A few things that master me are my sense of what is just, my spontaneity and my want to enjoy life....those things conflict sometimes as I have not wholly mastered them.

Last edited by euphorbia on 08-01-2002 at 01:25 AM

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08-01-2002 01:07 AM

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bunkum
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Hrm, what do I want to master? My own tendency to jump from one thing to the next...to channel enthusiasm for the temporary into something more substantial and long-term. I want to learn more, to dedicate myself to teaching others, to being self-sufficient and more prepared in the event of a crisis. I want to master my distrust of everybody and everything, and go with the flow a little more.

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08-01-2002 01:30 AM

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squee
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One thing I notice a lot is that a whole bunch of people are into "self-empowerment" these days.

In effect they're trying to master themselves, is what it all comes down to.

But if we take the view that your only choice is who or what your master is--be it an overriding principle, a moral belief, a god, a dollar sign, your offspring, your mortgage, a sea-slug, a spliff, or whatever--then how can you enslave yourself?

Technically it seems as if "self-empowerment" would be the way to go, if you can do it.

However cosmo's post made me think of something:

quote:
Originally posted by toocrazycosmo:
I choose my job...but it has no control to keep me there. If I want another job there is another one out there.

What is in control is some overarching principle, not the job itself--ie, maybe one job can't pin you down because you will leave it if you're unhappy, but your choices for another job are limited by your skills, or maybe just by what you find enjoyable. So you are in effect "enslaved" by a master anyway.

So, I think what this means is that although people can try to master themselves, they really do it according to some principle that becomes their master. In effect the desire to control themselves to the fullest extent runs their entire life.

I don't think that it's possible to fully control everything about yourself. So, this to me seems a plausible explanation for the failure that most people seem to run into in their quest for self-empowerment: It's not possible in the first place, and in the attempt, people become enslaved by the very desire to throw off all enslavement; and this has predictable negative consequences.

Is that circular? I don't think so.

Now here's an interesting idea.

Can your master give you more freedoms than you had as a "freeman?"

What I mean is, by giving up all your choices, or by at least voluntarily giving up some of your freedoms, can you actually gain more than you lost?

Can you become more powerful than you are right now by humbling yourself?

Can you become wiser by quitting a constant quest for knowledge and letting things come to you?

Does the person who ceaselessly strives for perfection shove away things like love or respect that can only be achieved by surrendering a part of yourself?

I think the ancient sages would agree...

What do you think?

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08-01-2002 06:40 PM

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Denominator
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So, squee...excited about going to war soon?

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08-01-2002 06:41 PM

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squee
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Well, we've been at war for several months now. I think the excitement is starting to wear off.

I'll let you know if getting shot at piques my interest, though.

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08-01-2002 07:01 PM

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Sabine
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I am my own master. every single thing I do.. from choosing which side of the bed I crawl out of in the morning to whether I choose to take another shot of vodka to whether I will trust someone or not.
if I choose to give in to indulgences.. I consider them my choice.. just beause I give in does not make that my master.. I was still the one who made the choice.. so until I choose to give up my right to make desisions for myself.. there is no excuse.. no other master than me to point a finger at.

oh.. except in cases where I can say:

"the devil made me do it!"
or
"I was drunk.. it's not my fault!"

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08-01-2002 07:03 PM

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squee
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You don't think, then, that what is controlling your comittment to controlling everything is you very desire to control everything?

I mean, if that were removed, then you would no longer care about choosing, right? At least, you wouldn't care about choosing everything, which for the sake of argument is just as good.

Also, if you're in control of everything, then do you sometimes simply allow your preconceptions or predispositions to run things? Ie, "The pilot was fully in control, because the decision to turn the autopilot on or off was still hers to make."

Also, while I'm asking questions, were you drunk at phorbie's or not? I honestly don't remember.

I do however remember the video phorbie is about to post, but having already exposed myself as the dork I am, I am even less apprehensive about that than I am about getting shot at by kamels with AK-47s.

Honest.

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08-01-2002 07:11 PM

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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by Sabine
snippy

Oh, but if you had nothing at all guiding your choices (dogma, philosophy, goals, desires ect ect) driving you, you probably be unemployed, in prison, or some loony whose mind is a chaotic cluster fuck. The world would be crazy...peanut butter mingling with the eggs, frogs and roaches having sex, no sex in the champagne room�..CRAZY!

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08-01-2002 07:21 PM

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Sabine
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You don't think, then, that what is controlling your comittment to controlling everything is you very desire to control everything?

desire does not make choices.. it gives you reason to make a certain choice.

I mean, if that were removed, then you would no longer care about choosing, right? At least, you wouldn't care about choosing everything, which for the sake of argument is just as good.

that's really hard to say.. in all honesty.. hey.. I'd rather NOT have to make choices.. I wish I was still 3 with my parents making most of my choices for me (thus being my master of most things) I would still be faced with making choices though regardless of whether I had a desire to or not.

Also, if you're in control of everything, then do you sometimes simply allow your preconceptions or predispositions to run things? Ie, "The pilot was fully in control, because the decision to turn the autopilot on or off was still hers to make."

yes.. my preconceptions or predispositions would play a part in it.. consider that they are there due to things I have experienced so far or learned.. personally.. I'm a pretty open person though.. and try not to look at everything as a foregone conclusion..

in the case of the pilot.. if after he put it on auto-pilot something went wrong.. it was his choice to put it on auto-pilot.. I would not say it was exactly his fault for something bad occuring.. (although I am sure that in his mind he would be thinking.. WHAT IF I had chosen differently?) if he did his job and knew the risks he chose to truat something that failed him.. there is risk in everything.. there ARE things we can't control and we choose to rely more and more on things like technology KNOWING these risks.

Also, while I'm asking questions, were you drunk at phorbie's or not? I honestly don't remember.

very.

I do however remember the video phorbie is about to post, but having already exposed myself as the dork I am, I am even less apprehensive about that than I am about getting shot at by kamels with AK-47s.

thank you.. I will now go and be paranoid.. excuse me.

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08-01-2002 07:28 PM

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Sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia

Oh, but if you had nothing at all guiding your choices (dogma, philosophy, goals, desires ect ect) driving you, you probably be unemployed, in prison, or some loony whose mind is a chaotic cluster fuck. The world would be crazy...peanut butter mingling with the eggs, frogs and roaches having sex, no sex in the champagne room�..CRAZY!

oh.. I wouldn't say nothing guides it.. but nothing but me makes my final choice unless I allow it.

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08-01-2002 07:30 PM

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squee
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Ok Sabine.

So there are things that guide your actions then? The greatest of them being your free will...although I think if we isolate the idea of "free will" as, say an "actor," something that does the choosing, then it is different from the factors that influence your decisions. I do maintain that the desire to have a free will is a factor that pushes you in a certain direction. If nothing else it lends a certain mulishness to many of my decisions--ie, choosing the difficult path just because I can. I mean, if you're choosing among ice cream flavors, your desire for ice cream in the first place is what brought about this decision, even though it might not really affect which ice cream you choose.

I agree with you about being three. But for me the magic age is 8 or 9. Big enough to ride my bike to the park unescorted, small enough not to have to worry about anything. But as happy as that was I don't think I could give up who I am now :\

Anyway. Don't worry about the video. It's only got me in it. And I lied about not worrying. Phorbie is going to post it and I'm never coming here again!

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08-01-2002 07:37 PM

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08-01-2002 07:43 PM

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Sabine
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So there are things that guide your actions then? The greatest of them being your free will...although I think if we isolate the idea of "free will" as, say an "actor," something that does the choosing, then it is different from the factors that influence your decisions. I do maintain that the desire to have a free will is a factor that pushes you in a certain direction. If nothing else it lends a certain mulishness to many of my decisions--ie, choosing the difficult path just because I can.

ok.. I guess that would be true to some point.. I'm trying to think personally if it's really a desire to control myeslf or just a neccessary evil.. maybe even a fear?