Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4739

This sort of ties in with the "free will" thread.

I'm reading Rousseau right now and I want to explore one idea he had. He basically says that a community/state/body politic is formed when all the members surrender themselves and all that they own to the public. I'm not quite clear then if what you own is yours because everything is everyone's, or rather that you get what is yours right back because you are a member of the state. Or what.

What interested me was that he said what you own should be taken not by "vain ceremony," but by working it, in other words taking ownership of it by the sweat of your brow. Pride of ownership is something we understand very well in the military, although it's hard to convince the new recruits that when they clean the toilets extra good, that shitter becomes theirs!

So in essence I think he's saying that the citizens own the state because they make the state work--they operate it, and so it becomes theirs not only because they are "entitled to it" but rather in the same sense that your LIFE is your own because you take control of it.

To some certain extent, when you take control of something, you have an obligation to it. And I think many people here already have heard or read something about the relationship between "rights" and "responsibility", that is, you do not have the right to free speech in America, but rather, the obligation to keep the Union healthy by speaking out against what you think is wrong. A citizen is someone who, say, has the obligation to vote, not just the right to sufferage.

What are some different forms of obligation? --I asked myself. Two obvious kinds are duty and devotion. But, what is the difference between these two?

Some say duty is a requirement; and yet, neither kind can be something that is forced because this is a voluntary kind of obligation we're taking on. Perhaps it is better to say that there are certain necessary conditions that are part of your obligation to the state that you have decided to take part in?

What would these necessary conditions consist of?

And what kind of devotion are we talking about? Obviously I think that duty and devotion are inherent in some kinds of obligations, for example, Phorbie has certain duties but also a lot of devotion to the obligations she's entered into willingly (for example, her marraige to Splat, her motherhood, etc.). Maybe patriotism is a kind of devotion?

Maybe the difference is that devotion is things that come from you, whereas duty is things that come from the state...?

And what are some other facets of this obligation?

Am I rambling yet?

And what does this have to do with the price of bread in Peking?

/me sighs...

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

It's been a while since I've read Discourse, but my understanding of Rousseau's concept of obligation is basically tied into his concept of the collective will.

To wit: the key element of the social contract is the complete subordination of the individual will to the collective will. One's "obligation," under Rousseau, is always to put the collective good ahead of one's own welfare. In a democracy, one would yeild up such privileges as civil disobedience, and property "rights" in particular would be held in much lower esteem than in any western society currently operating.

But like I said, it's been a while. Phil could probably speak to this issue with more clarity.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4739

And the other questions...?

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

Not sure I understand them, or how they relate to Rousseau's thesis. Ask somebody smarter.

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