Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

Okay squee, I'm moving the discussion to this new thread, as I think we're going to drive everyone else crazy with the extreme deviation from the music thread.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Ok. I didn't see this for some reason. I think my retinae are wearing out with all the forum use this afternoon.

quote:

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I love when hypothetical clearly resembles reality. If you are apologizing, just say so, but I can't guarantee I'll accept.
Hypothetically:
Your questions are far too general at the moment. However, I'll try to answer what I think you are going for with some objectivity as to the events of yesterday. I see correction as an insult when the basis for correction as well as the superiority of the "corrective item" are assumed.
There are some scenarios where correction is acceptable without regard to insult: when the information being used to replace the incorrect information is proven and based on fact.
There are scenarios where correction is mildly insulting but potentially acceptable: when the information is based largely on opinion, for example.
There are scenarios where the implication that something should be corrected is completely insulting.
Any presumption of authority without full knowledge of the status and position of the other person is asking for trouble. Harsh language can also generally get you in deeper than you intended...
This is long enough for now... let me know where you are going with this and I'll see if I can elaborate further. Perhaps this should be moved to a new thread? "squee and zornkügel discuss correction..."

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

Okay, because there is a lot here, I'm just going to tackle the pieces that I needed to clear up and the piece of it that I think was your original motivating issue:

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Originally posted by squee
Your position, as I understand it, is that you get pissed off when the person doing the correcting incorrectly assumes he's correct (hah!).

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That's the general gist of it, yes.

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Originally posted by squee
I can apologize for harshness...as some people have noted I get too into my postings.

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You are mostly forgiven. I forgive most of an offense, but it takes a while for the person to get completely back in my good graces. You are on your way by virtue of having apologized within 24 hours.

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
However, as the issue of correction itself (that was, if I recall, the state of charity efforts by modern American Catholic youth) has not yet been resolved I cannot apologize for any assumption of authority, because my premise has not yet been shot down.

However, since you have not yet approached that issue, I'm going to assume that what irritates you is my assumption that you belong to that class about which I'm arguing. Is that correct? Are you saying that I'm wrong about those efforts or that I'm wrong to lump you in with those ineffectual types without knowing you inside & out, as it were?

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I believe that you are wrong about some of those efforts, but your judgements are based on what you see around you and therefore you cannot be expected to have a full view of the situation - which leads to my irritation with the rash generalization whether I am included in the group or not.
To get to the heart of the personal offense, mostly the insult came from the "lumping". You, my friend, are barely out of the age bracket yourself but attempted to portray yourself as an elder... I don't consider anyone who was in high school at the same time as myself to be an elder, as that would put you in the same bracket of high-schoolers to which you presumed I belonged. (You graduated in '97 or '98, I would assume from your age.)

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Don't get ahead of yourself, I haven't apologized yet. I might just decide to be a dickhead.
...
::whistles::
::looks around::
::alphabetizes CD collection::

Ok. Sorry for being rude.

That said, authority does not come from the person; but rather from the knowledge they bring to the table. Like the Pope. Karol Wojtyla doesn't have authority; however John Paul II has authority because when he says something, you can expect him to be right. If he was saying the same things now as when he was a student, then he's still be right, right?

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
Don't get ahead of yourself, I haven't apologized yet. I might just decide to be a dickhead.
...
::whistles::
::looks around::
::alphabetizes CD collection::

Ok. Sorry for being rude.

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You are still mostly forgiven.

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
That said, authority does not come from the person; but rather from the knowledge they bring to the table. Like the Pope. Karol Wojtyla doesn't have authority; however John Paul II has authority because when he says something, you can expect him to be right. If he was saying the same things now as when he was a student, then he's still be right, right?

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If those things are "right", then he was a perceptive schoolboy. Just because the Pope says something doesn't necessarily make it right (though it likely can be considered right), and his authority extends only to the time when he entered the seminary with increasing levels of "rightness" as his wisdom and stature increased. His "rightness" is based on the divine wisdom and knowledge which his position have given him.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Ok, but let's say he had the same stance on contraception when he was 9 that he does now. Isn't the philosophy he's trying to impart equally right then as it is now? We may not listen as much, but what I'm saying is, the message ought to have its own authority independant of the weight the person can throw behind it.

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
Ok, but let's say he had the same stance on contraception when he was 9 that he does now. Isn't the philosophy he's trying to impart equally right then as it is now? We may not listen as much, but what I'm saying is, the message ought to have its own authority independant of the weight the person can throw behind it.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

I'm not talking about contraception, I'm saying, isn't the weight of the Pope's argument more dependent on what he's saying than just the simple fact that he's the Pope?

Isn't that true for any argument?

If I make an argument, either the facts are correct or they're wrong...but my status as an "elder" or my wild-assed assumptions have no bearing on whether it's correct or not.

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
I'm not talking about contraception, I'm saying, isn't the weight of the Pope's argument more dependent on what he's saying than just the simple fact that he's the Pope?

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

Also, your "status as an 'elder'" was a driving part of your demeaning argument - you tried to separate yourself from the group that you were insulting and placed me in that group without considering that you could just as easily be put into the offending age bracket. As I said, you and I were in high school at the same time. The people I worked with on Habitat (fellow teenagers at the time) are your age. When did you graduate from high school, squee?

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Ok. Now we're getting back to the original argument--and now you are attempting to refute it. Which, I will concede, perhaps would have happened already had I not been quite so harsh.

Back to the charity thread?

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
Ok. Now we're getting back to the original argument--and now you are attempting to refute it. Which, I will concede, perhaps would have happened already had I not been quite so harsh.

Back to the charity thread?

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I will say that had you argued as an adult and not resorted to mudslinging so early in the game, it may have worked. However, let's keep the discussion here, as it's easier and I doubt that anyone who has been reading for the past day or two doesn't know where to look for the discussion.
Come on in, folks, the water's fine!

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

P.S. Stop dodging the age issue and 'fess up. When did you graduate from high school? This will be less painful if you just give me your answer.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Dammit, I already put a post back in the charity thread.

'97.
Studied molecular biology for three years.
Quit school and joined the Navy.
Now thinking of studying bioethics or political philosophy when I get out, and then entering either the seminary or a monastery...depends upon how fed up with the world I get.

You may as well explain the rest of your background to prevent any more wild-assed guesses on my part.

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
Dammit, I already put a post back in the charity thread.

'97.

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Ah, I was right. Well, congratulations, you were part of our age group.

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You may as well explain the rest of your background to prevent any more wild-assed guesses on my part.

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'99.
Studied occupational therapy, psychology and music for a year.
Transferred to a state school closer to home to change my major and because the school I attended freshman year was a pretentious and obnoxious private college in the New Haven area (no, not Yale).
Studied early childhood education, math, history and music for a semester.
Studied elementary education, math, history and music for a semester.
Studied literature and music for the past year (math and history minors having been finished during the previous two semesters)
Will graduate in May 2003, then go on to graduate studies in musicology and music theory either immediately or after a year of study in Italian and German.
Have lived in New England my entire life and hope to keep that statement until the day I die with little exception for perhaps a month or two at a time in SoCal, Europe (preferably the U.K. or Italy) and maybe your part of VA (I absolutely love the Yorktown and VA Beach areas).
Catholic. Confirmed. (Sounds like some sort of diagnosis...)
Female.
Involved in a long-term relationship that will become an engagement and then a marriage once Dave and I have the money.
Work two jobs: full time as a billing clerk (I am the entire billing department for an multinational company) and part time as a piano instructor.
What else do you want to know?

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Germany
Posts: 496

I love how squee always attempts to change a topic by philosophizing about the Pope.

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Registered: Jul 2002
Location: Chelmsford, MA
Posts: 548

quote:

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Originally posted by Denominator
I love how squee always attempts to change a topic by philosophizing about the Pope.

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