Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 944

& I was thinking what If Hitler was never born

If he hadn't been the driving force for the genocide committed against the Jewish people

Would Israel then have come into fruition as a modern country

& all the strife in the middle east that was caused as a result of it's formation still have happened

& would so many Jewish people & those from other countries greatly affected by the events of WWII have immigrated to America if it hadn't have happened


& would there have been a Hollywood
since a lot of the major powerbrokers in Hollywood were people who came to America to escape the aftermath of the deathcamps




missjo
Just wondering

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beyond Mason-Dixon Line
Posts: 16327

All one can do is guess, but I'd suggest this: It's very plausible that someone else would've inserted himself into the Hitler equation. The times and circumstances were an opportunity for any personality like his to take advantage.

Amen.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2002
Location: in your head
Posts: 158

Well we coulda done without Schindlers list that's for sure

Long boring fookin movie

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2570

JEB, I agree.
I'm sure someone else's name would be more reviled if he hadn't been around.
I get a bit tired of the evils of the 20th century = Hitler.
It's a bit like Terrorism = Bin Laden.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Ljusdal, Sweden
Posts: 196

I agree with JEB and absolut and, of course with Mongo.

A war would have started with or without Hitler. Many germans felt cheated and mistreated by the peace treaty signed in Versailles after WWI. Germany who had always had a strong army was now made weak. Almost no standing army and no military industry was allowed. After the strong patriotism and romantic ideas of Germany as the most powerful nation in the world that grew throughout Germany during the 19th century it was almost unbelievable that they had lost and an insult that their army made incapacitated. Their pride and self esteem had to be mended somehow and a war was very likely to have erupted sooner or later.

Antisemitism was not something that Hitler invented, it has been present in Europe for almost two thousand years. It has had it's "highs and lows" but it has always been there. During the 19th century antisemitism became stronger when rich, educated people started to talk about it not as a feeling or such but something almost scientifically deduced. Earlier jews had been one of the scape goats when a well dried or the crop was destroyed by something. Then jews were considered as odd and maybe even evil but now some people started to talk about them as inferior. Of course it wasn't the first time people called jews inferior or so but now "scientific" reasons were used.

Jews have been persecuted almost on a regular basis. During the 14th century the black plague raged through Europe, killing up to 50 % of the population in some areas and maybe 30 % of the total population in Europe. People needed something to explain why this happened and jews were one of the many groups of people that were accused. Systematic killing of all jews happened in many places and especially in Germany. Back then it was common people who orchestrated the persecutions and the leaders (at least some of them) tried to stop it. Of course it was not only jews that were accused of poisoning wells and so on, Gypsies and other minorities as well as other social groups. Those that were known to have knowledge of medicinal herbs, both men and women were often accused of causing the plague.

In Russia antisemitism has always been strong, "pogroms" have happened several times through the centuries and when the germans invaded during WWII and started killing jews many russians helped in the killing.

The problems in the middle east begun long before Israel was created. That Israel exists have most likely made some of these problems worse but clashes between jews and arabs happened long before 1948. Great Britain ruled Palestine before WWII and many jews had already moved there. Or for that matter never left.

Something like Israel had probably been created anyhow, either where Israel is today or somewhere else. Jewish nationalism or zionism grew stronger prior tto WWII and the idea of a Jewish state was not something born in the concentration camps. The dream of it might have been spread to more people and the longing for it might have grown stronger but the idea had been there for quite some time.

People would have migrated from Europe to USA even if they weren't fleeing persecution or a war. During the 18th century many people fled starvation and unemployment in Europe for the dream of a new life in USA. This was of course mainly poor people who came looking for work but the fact that they were so many would have brought people with money to take advantage of the large supply of unemployed people.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Dumbfucksville!
Posts: 12164

Think about this: If what you say is true--that is, if Hitler himself HADN'T mattered--then manifest destiny IS true and history is not something that "just happens" but that is destined to happen and would happen ANYWAY. History as Providence, as it were. Carried to the extreme, then history has ALREADY been written.

So, I guess I'll have to be contrarian and disagree. I think one man CAN make a difference and, in this instance, Adolf Hitler was that man.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Ljusdal, Sweden
Posts: 196

No, history is not something that "just happens" but something that is created both by actions of men and women and also the ideas of people, both individuals and as groups. Nations, social "classes" and such. Something that happens today is caused both by those who live and takes actions now but also by events that occurred in the past. The cause of a war isn't just that one day a man woke up and decides to invade Poland.

Hitler and those around him mattered to the events in and around WWII. The holocaust might not have happened without them but a war would (almost certainly) have taken place. The situation in Europe was quite unstable at the time, Germanys pride was hurt, Russia was on the rise, Italy was in a crisis and felt somewhat cheated by Great Britain and France as they had been promised land after WWI but never got it. There fascism rose with Mussolini coming to power in 1922. New states had formed after WWI, the Austrio-Hungarian empire had split up. The colonies were beginning to realize that they could win their independence. There were various formal and informal alliances, not as complicated as the ones before WWI but still there. A war in Europe would have been likely to draw most of the world into war because the European nations still possessed colonies spread across the world.

To many people that lived then a new war was almost unimaginable. The horrors of WWI had not yet faded and some said "never again". I believe that this is one of the things that made a new war possible. Too many believed that everyone had these feelings and didn't want to believe that a war could ever again erupt in Europe.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Ljusdal, Sweden
Posts: 196

quote:

---

Originally posted by swingfly
The cause of a war isn't just that one day a man woke up and decides to invade Poland...

---

Come to think of it, that might just have been the case:

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged