Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

This all started when the ship's Postal Clerk asked me to write an article for the ship's monthly newsletter, which is mailed home to the wives and parents, and the production of which he has taken on a collateral duty.

"Can it be about anything?" I asked.
"Sure, anything at all," he said.

So, fine. After a couple false starts I ended up writing an article about how in the Navy there is no interpersonal support network--that nobody feels as if they have any responsibility or obligation to help other people out. I indicted everyone at every level, from the new boot to the Commanding Officer, in somewhat harsh terms, perhaps harsher than necessary, but your Forumites know what it's like when you get to writing something about which you feel strongly.

Unsuprisingly this has provoked a shitstorm.

I am getting hostile responses from all levels of the chain--but, most notably, from those whom I think bear the most responsibility in this matter, our middle management. This consists of Chiefs and Junior SWOs (officers), people who have similar levels of authority but vastly different education and experience.

Anyone else ever gone and shit the bed in this manner? Do you think I was right or wrong? And does anyone else think that by and large middle management can go to Hell?

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10218

You were wrong, but explaining why would be pointless given you're in the middle of it already.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2570

There's no censor huh?
And you're stuck on a ship?
Good luck.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

So you're saying that it's wrong to speak out on something you think is going awry because you will get a lot of shit for it?

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: finding the new flesh after killing the old one
Posts: 2035

if this is a new concept to the culture of your workplace, a more subtle introduction would probably have been more productive, well received and tested the water a little more.

I've studied management (strategic/inter-personal .. and a few other branches - half way through a masters) ... and from my studies and own experience (I'm a manager) I can say that most middle management havent been trained in inter-personal relations. From the type of organisation which you are working, management is seen as a set of skills/competencies and a hierachy. Anything relating to the philosophy of good management is very often disregarded as pseudo science, which isnt generally valued as much as a more traditional and structural approach.

If your management arent used to working in a culture that values the areas you feel need improving youre in trouble really. It takes a long time for culture changes of this nature, and very rarely can it be achieved from bottom down - it has to be a top down change ( due to the nature of your organisation) .

edit: Even then it can take decades, particularly if its of the nature that the majority of those in power are going to strongly oppose it - and in your case they most likely will.

there are plenty good books out there that help you analyse the type of culture youre working in and will help recommend which is the best approach to take with change and improvement schemes .. let me know if youre interested and I'll drag out my reading list and see what I can find online.

whichever way, good luck ... I think youre going to need it

Last edited by ǵr¹Øú§ on 11-09-2002 at 02:18 PM

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10218

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
So you're saying that it's wrong to speak out on something you think is going awry because you will get a lot of shit for it?

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: finding the new flesh after killing the old one
Posts: 2035

MstrG is correct Squee. Before you do anything like this .. you need to understand your role within the big picture, understand the culture of your environment, the people you work with, the nature of your work, the history of the structure, and your overall place within the whole system.

venting out at people who dont understand you. dont want to hear you, and who will feel threatened, will feel attacked, wont help your cause at all ...


read around the subject, understand it ... and take a different approach

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

I'm sure similar words about knowing one's place were spoken to King before he began his own crusade.

The fact is, this sort of thing used to be taken for granted. In this particular culture (the Navy) our leadership still can't figure out what comes first...the ship, or her crew. The Marines don't have this ambiguity. The main question, asked time and time again, is "How does this affect the rifleman?"--this is the basic unit upon which everything is based. As recently as thirty years ago the basic unit was the seaman, a basic sailor who was good at nautical stuff and fighting shipboard fires. This has given way to a "technician's Navy" for various reasons. And the leadership this change has produced and the leadership it attracts no longer give a flying fuck about the "basic Sailor." They're in it for #1. And so we have a sharp increase over the past ten years of punishment cases for simple misbehavior that stems from new guys not being included into any kind of service culture...because they old guard took it with them when the New Guard rolled them out.

Maybe I'm being naive about when and how I said it...but it has to be said sometime...and it has to be said by someone...what better time than now, and if I don't, who can I count on to do it?

By the way...I'm already used to hostility from the middle management because of other principles I have taken a stand on (in this case, regarding civil rights) and in those cases and in this the upper management (senior leadership) is behind me.

What I really wonder is, am I going to find the same things on the outside? I'm pondering this while I decide to re-up or not.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10218

quote:

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Originally posted by MstrG

Are you really pretending to be oblivious...

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: finding the new flesh after killing the old one
Posts: 2035

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
I'm sure similar words about knowing one's place were spoken to King before he began his own crusade.

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hah ... after this comment now I know you wont get it ... I'll leave you alone ...

have fun taking on the navy

PS: MstrG was right with his first comment ... and had i listened i couldve saved myself 15 minutes ... oh well

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

Care to expand on that point?

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: finding the new flesh after killing the old one
Posts: 2035

nope - pointless

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sydney
Posts: 2570

Damn Sonja..you stole my quote.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

Geez...I honestly thought you two would have something meaningful to contribute (especially you, Sonja)...but more the fool I! Either I'm misunderstanding you or you're just being obtuse; and in either case, one would think it worthwhile to get one's point across. This is apparently not the case.

At the risk of flogging the horse some more, I will point out that I'm not tilting at windmills. There is no "the Navy" in the sense that you're thinking because ships are such enclosed, socially inbred communities. From a social standpoint, every ship may as well be the only ship out there...we cooperate in accomplishing the mission but then again there is a long tradition of unit autonomy going back to 1775, and before then...

I constantly expect persecution...and I don't really mind it when it's inflicted by small-minded fucks (ahem, MstrG) but these old fucks had better come with it because, as I said, I am supported in this. If I wasn't I probably wouldn't have dared to voice this opinion. I more or less expected this to happen...

...I just find it odd that you (sonja, MstrG, and no apparently absolut) are saying that it's wrong to fight the dominant culture, even if it's wrong.

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Registered: Jun 2001
Location: finding the new flesh after killing the old one
Posts: 2035

I'm not just saying that squee ... not at all ... I will take time to reply to you a little later (I'm just about to watch a movie) and analyse it some more and try to put it down in a constructive way ...

in the mean time .. I would say ... think about what youre actually doing .. the effect of what youre doing v's the intended effects ... and the limitations you face given your position ...

For a while, forget about grand schemes and martin luther comparisons, and focus on what *is* achievable and who stands to lose what if you were to achieve your goals. Looks at whats in the way of achieving them and why its there ...

From the MstrG being small minded angle, i would say its the opposite. Even though you're ambitious and wanting to change things, you're actually being small minded because you're not seeing farther than your own little bubble.

Also, look back at the last two sentences to your original post. Look at the language you use. Youre not looking for a solution to the problem in your thread. By the nature of those words, youre looking for someone to confirm your current beliefs and you wont be happy until you get that response here - translation: it means youre not intending to listen to whats being advised. (last paragraph ™Pikasmaug)

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

Perhaps you're right, except that as far as "little bubble" goes, this is a pretty far-reaching issue...it's endemic...even if the only place I can affect it is a small area (being my unit).

As for what people stand to lose...this is not an extra exertion on their part. Part of the idea of covenant leadership is that if you are placed in a position of authority, there is a commensurate increase in your responsibility to those who lead...and anyone who is worth his chevrons will tell you the exact same thing. These men are not owning up to their obligations, therefore to me and to many they do not deserve their position.

I welcome your other questions as well:
Why are the obstacles there? Because nobody challenges them. With such manpower shortages in the service, you are retained and advanced unless you do something to get yourself kicked out. The best of us get fed up with dealing with these clowns all day, so they leave; whereas, apparently, the only ones who stay are the clowns themselves (infact the recruitment and retention pitch is directed towards those who value money and benefits over anything else), and those who can stomach working with them and for them. This is a well-known problem but because middle management is so clannish when it comes to hanging onto their perks, nobody challenges them--but I figured, hell, what have I go to lose? So I gave it a shot.

Am I being immature in my timing, manner of speech, and attitude? Possibly--but I think it is more childish to just sit there and take it than to say something about it.

As for advising...I will note that you have tried, and MstrG has not. Nuff said.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10218

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
and I don't really mind it when it's inflicted by small-minded fucks

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

Then by all means, exit, posthaste.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16812

[QUOTE]Originally posted by squee


Anyone else ever gone and shit the bed in this manner?

Yes, first I became vocal over a situation at one of my jobs, then staged a walk out...My bosses really liked me up till then. I have also brought up the incompetence and lack of work effort of some at meetings on a construction site because I was tired of carrying other people's loads and doing their jobs...I have a really good work ethic so the job will get done and get done right even if I have to pick up the slack for 10 other people. But Ill be damned if I done remind them what sorry fuckers they are.


Do you think I was right or wrong?

no, Kudos to you...though in my situations I always had the option to leave.

And does anyone else think that by and large middle management can go to Hell?


Most of the time yes....the incompetence of the people who are supposedly more educated, work less and get paid more than I do never ceases to amaze me.

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Ducktown, GA
Posts: 1429

Squee, you were supposed to write about the preparations for the holiday season aboard, or a nice piece with pictures about fathers on the ship and the things they brought aboard to remind them of their children. Don't rock the boat while you're leaning off the deck. Those newsletters are meant to make the folks that didnt come along feel better about the separation, not for you to hop a soapbox.

Heart in the right place, mouth in the wrong one.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4735

Yah, yer probably all correct.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 18892

You should remember that you're in the armed services. They don't take kindly to thought. Just do your damn job.

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Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Baba Kueria
Posts: 3146

I can empathise with your dislike of middle management, although one rule I try to live by is never piss off the people who prepare my food.

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