Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 1574

I'd like to be the first to congratulate the Dep't of Homeland Security for making mace fatal. Good thing everyone was sufficiently terrorized, else a chemical weapon attack might have caught these guys unaware, and they might not have trampled their way out quite fast enough...

http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/...club/index.html

Chicago club stampede kills at least 21

CHICAGO, Illinois (CNN) --At least 21 people were killed and 19 others critically injured when hundreds of panicked nightclub patrons rushed to escape after a disturbance early Monday, police said.

Police said the rush for the doors occurred after security guards used pepper spray and Mace to break up a fight between patrons at Epitome, a restaurant and nightclub on the city's near South Side.

"There was a disturbance or altercation in the bar ... some sort of stampede occurred," said Police Officer Ozzie Rodriguez.

At least 11 people were being treated for less serious injuries.

Fumes caused some of the 500 to 1,000 patrons to vomit or pass out and others scrambled to get down the club's single open staircase leading outside, according to Chicago Fire Department Cmdr. Will Knight.

Many of the victims were trampled or crushed as they rushed to exit the club.

"They were all coming out the front door," Knight told CNN Radio. "Our firefighters had to cut the door open from the rear of the building."

Knight said the area was being treated as a crime scene.

Survivors told horror stories. "Everybody smashed; people crying, couldn't breathe," patron Reggie Clark told The Associated Press. "Two ladies next to me died. A guy under me passed out."

Hospital officials said some of the victims died of cardiac arrest.

Cory Thomas, 33, said he was waiting outside the club with friends when the stampede occurred, according to the AP.

"You could see a mound of people," Thomas told the AP. "People were stacking on top of each other, screaming and gagging, I guess from the pepper spray. The door got blocked because there were too many people stacked up against it.

"I saw them taking out a pregnant woman," Thomas said. "She was in bad shape. I saw at least 10 lifeless bodies."

Some club patrons opened doors and went into broom closets. Apparently there was only one way down from the second level to the first, contributing to the problem.

Firefighters had to pull trampled bodies out of stairwells.

"They're stuck in the hallway. They literally can't move," a panicked patron told police.

"She's not breathing. She's not breathing," a man called to medics as he helped load the limp body of a woman into the back of an ambulance.

The incident began around 3 a.m. CST (4 a.m. EST). The nightclub is at 24th Street and South Michigan Avenue.

Civil rights leader Jesse Jackson said he and his associates were visiting area hospitals helping to identify victims for family members.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 18823

Hiphop kills, absolute hiphop kills absolutely.

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Harm's Way
Posts: 557

Hahaha.

Americans GAS their own people.

Horrifically reminescent of the showers at Dachau.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

Oh, PLEASE. It's the fault not of the people who started the fight, nor of the cops who used enough pepper spray to knock people unconscious, nor of the club owners for filling the place beyond capacity, nor of the patrons for acting like lemmings, but of the friggin' DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, for providing accurate information about a threat to people's lives???

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10178

quote:

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... Civil rights leader Jesse Jackson said he and his associates were visiting area hospitals helping to identify victims for family members.

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Harm's Way
Posts: 557

quote:

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Originally posted by Dingle
wha? huh? why? who the fuck cares?

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 18490

quote:

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Originally posted by CHiPsJr
Oh, PLEASE. It's the fault not of the people who started the fight, nor of the cops who used enough pepper spray to knock people unconscious, nor of the club owners for filling the place beyond capacity, nor of the patrons for acting like lemmings, but of the friggin' DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY, for providing accurate information about a threat to people's lives???

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 1574

My point is that there is very little value in creating a general, nationwide "Terror Alert" system, besides to instill paranoia. Not considering the absurdly extreme possibilities, at best, you might get luck and have some suspicious housewife phone in weird behavior that somehow pulls the last puzzle piece into place, and the SWAT team descends just in time to save the day. At best. Again disgarding the absurdly extreme, at worst, you put people on edge, you cause a run on duct tape, and maybe people get edgy enough to trample 21 people while running from mace.

An alert system doesn't really make much sense at all, if you think about it. If we've got enough information to suspect something's going to go down, then we should be able to inform military and government resources in the area of the threat, and they'll talk what appropriate action is warranted. There's not much else effective that can be done. General, nationwide alerts instill terror, and do extremely little to protect against it. What it does is provides an "I told you so" cover for the government if something goes down, and it serves political ends by perpetuating the rally-round-the-flag effect by reminding us that we're supposedly still in a "war on terror."

Bah on that, says I.

Leaky.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

after all the shit they got for not warning us before sept 11 I find that argument a bit weak. If we were attacked and there wasn’t a warning there would be a whole lot of whining.

on a side note, this thing happens…not often but it does. Its why screaming fire in a crowded place is against the law.
I used to hang out at a club named The Edge in Fla. It was made out of an old movie theater with all the walls knocked out and it was huge. Some one sprayed some pepper spray over at one in end of...everyone in the place's eyes and throat started burning.
If that place was crowded and the bouncers used pepper spray to try and stop the fight I can imagine many people felt the effects of said pepper spray and were probably trying to get away from that... if they were all watching the fight...huddled around and shit...I’m sure most knew what happened...but their face was on fire...so they moved and the building wasnt to code.

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Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355

i accidentally sprayed "bear spray" in a house once (hi, i'm a moron). it was a fraction of a second only, but once the chemicals had a chance to disperse and all that it was certainly uncomfortable. mostly coughing, a small amount of discomfort around the eyes.
yeah. i can imagine what more would do. the trampling was stupid, and i think the colour code thing is stupid, but i don't think their stupidities are connected.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

quote:

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Originally posted by greenleakynipples
My point is that there is very little value in creating a general, nationwide "Terror Alert" system, besides to instill paranoia. Not considering the absurdly extreme possibilities, at best, you might get luck and have some suspicious housewife phone in weird behavior that somehow pulls the last puzzle piece into place, and the SWAT team descends just in time to save the day. At best. Again disgarding the absurdly extreme, at worst, you put people on edge, you cause a run on duct tape, and maybe people get edgy enough to trample 21 people while running from mace.

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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 1574

You're right that there's no direct connect between the trampling and the terror level. I suspected this morning that it might have played a role in the crowd's reaction, but I haven't read anything specifically citing it. The trampling and possibility of the terror/paranoia social phenomenon is what got me thinking about the terror system though...

I'm arguing that a vague "terror alert is high" serves no purpose but to increase paranoia. If there's a specific threat, the take steps to mitigate it, and warn people in the affected area. We all know terrorists are out there, just as we all know chemical weapons are out there - and there is a difference between letting civilians know it's there and sending out daily alerts about it - but unless the warning is specific, all it does is scare everyone. I'm not at all opposed to a tornado warning system because it warns people NEAR the tornado. The terror alert system warns everyone in the whole country - putting hundreds of millions of people on edge who have no reason to be. If you're raising the terror alert level and don't have a specific threat, then you're not be responsible with it, or you're motivated by something else. If you have a specific threat, make your warning specific. That's all.

Leaky.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10178

quote:

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Originally posted by Jack the Bagman
That was their way of letting us know it was a bunch of negros.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
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Registered: Dec 2001
Location: Baton Rouge
Posts: 1574

Well, it turns out my first hunch was right... some of them, at least, did think it was terrorism.

"Witnesses said hundreds of panicky club patrons rushed for the door about 3 a.m. (4 a.m. EST) Monday.

Witnesses could hear shouts that the incident was a terrorist attack. Some of them told CNN that people shouted "poison gas." Lakeshia Blackwell, 20, heard someone say, "I'll bet it's bin Laden."

When some patrons began to vomit or pass out -- apparently from chemical fumes -- the crowd scrambled to get down the club's single open staircase leading outside. "

Source: http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/...club/index.html

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: US
Posts: 3532

I think the Terror Warnings are about as useful as the Nuclear Bomb Drills my parents used to go through at school. No matter how well you are cautious about these things, you really can't save yourself if they happen.

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: All over the place
Posts: 2803

I don't think it takes much to cause death by trampling in a night club, air of govt induced gas panic or not.

In my line of work I see a lot of sub 1000 cap music/ dance venues all over Europe, and practically every single one is a deathtrap. One fire, a fight, a gun being pulled, whatever, would result in massive deaths from just this sort of thing as people rush to get out of the way.

It's sad. Happens more often than people realise (50 odd people died in Europe attending music events last year, nearly all because of crushing and suffocation).

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35561

quote:

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Originally posted by Weasel Spoor
It's sad. Happens more often than people realise (50 odd people died in Europe attending music events last year, nearly all because of crushing and suffocation).

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Harm's Way
Posts: 557

Hysteria is easily induced in black people.

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