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nymbus
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Registered: Aug 2000
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Thumbs up Same sex marriages

Bill would legalize same-sex marriages in state

By COURTNEY LOWERY
Gazette State Bureau
HELENA -- A hearing on a proposal to legalize same-sex marriages attracted a crowd Wednesday, with one lawmaker saying the measure would solidify Montana's historic "live and let live" philosophy.

Rep. Tom Facey, D-Missoula, brought the issue forward with his House Bill 607, which would strip all gender references to married partners from Montana law, leaving the door open for same-sex couples legally to marry. A similar measure did not pass during the 2001 session.

Proponents of the bill, which was heard before the House State Administration Committee, said it would send a message of progress and equality. Opponents said it would jeopardize family values and violate the sanctity of marriage.

Rep. Brad Newman, D-Butte, a co-sponsor of the bill, reminded the committee that "in Montana, we are not sheep, we are shepherds," and this bill solidifies Montana's historic "live and let live" philosophy.

"No state in the union has had the courage to recognize same-sex marriages. Proponents of HB607 are asking to open the debate on this issue and asking Montanans to be the first, to be the leaders." Newman said. Vermont recognizes civil unions, but not marriages.


Karl Olson, executive director of Montana PRIDE, a gay rights group, told the committee that gay and lesbian couples uphold many of the same "family values" that heterosexual couples do. Olson said he and his partner have a downright mundane family life, with Scrabble and spaghetti as a treasured Sunday ritual.

Julie Millam, executive director of the Montana Family Coalition, spoke in opposition to the bill, saying that as the definition of marriage changes, so do values in the state.

"A nation that places more importance on the guarantee of unfettered sexual license than on marriage, children and family stability is slowly, but surely undermining its own survival," she said.

Opponents and proponents were allotted 30 minutes each for testimony. Both sides had more people lined up to speak when time was up. The bill would amend 45 sections of the Montana law, including those pertaining to retirement benefits, next-of-kin laws, decisions made by one's family about health care and others.

From here

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Old Post 02-20-2003 04:34 PM
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nymbus
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Re: Same sex marriages

quote:
Originally posted by nymbus
Opponents said it would jeopardize family values and violate the sanctity of marriage.


Ok, two words for this argument: Arranged Marriage. It's a new reality show on Fox where audiences play matchmaker for people who agree to get married to people they've never met.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 04:37 PM
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Jack the Bagman
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Why would anyone want to validate, or be validated by, an institution that does not consider them valid?

Its just shit-disturbing drama. Go marry your fucking selves in a parking lot.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 04:47 PM
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Cage
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Feelings of acceptance aside, there are a ton of logistical assaches that come from not being considered "legally married", e.g. insurance coverage, taxes, adoption, etc. If you're going to go through the pain of being married, you should at least get the legal benefits along with it.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:08 PM
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FuhQall
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Marriage is a christian term used for "the joining of man and woman in holy matrimony", Gay people should come up with their own fucking term for joining and stop whining, a living will can be drawn up in order to cover their partners in the event of death, this is the legal equivelant to marriage tie-ins.

God weeps and then kills a kitten everytime hetrosexually challenged persons attempt marriage.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:18 PM
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Jack the Bagman
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quote:
Originally posted by Cage
Feelings of acceptance aside, there are a ton of logistical assaches that come from not being considered "legally married", e.g. insurance coverage, taxes, adoption, etc. If you're going to go through the pain of being married, you should at least get the legal benefits along with it.


They can go to city hall and get married. Then have their own little treehugging fudgepacking carpetmunching hippy pagan rituals in the park.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:21 PM
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nymbus
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Marriage is a christian term used for "the joining of man and woman in holy matrimony", Gay people should come up with their own fucking term for joining and stop whining,[b]

It's not just a christian term, it's a legal arrangement.

[b]a living will can be drawn up in order to cover their partners in the event of death, this is the legal equivelant to marriage tie-ins.

A living will can cover some of the healthcare issues, but there are more benefits to marriage than just being able to make healthcare decisions for your partner in the case of an emergency.

When marriage moved from the religious realm to the legal one, it stopped mattering what the christians thought about it.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:25 PM
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nymbus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bagman
They can go to city hall and get married.


No they can't.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:26 PM
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Cage
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bagman
They can go to city hall and get married. Then have their own little treehugging fudgepacking carpetmunching hippy pagan rituals in the park.


They can't go to city hall if their locality doesn't recognize same-sex marriages. Did you just wake up?



And a living will cannot force an insurance company to provide spousal medical insurance for your mate. You're talking about life insurance benefits, not medical insurance. Some companies choose to extend coverage to "domestic partners", but it's a rare thing. However, if the state legally recognizes the couple as married, then the insurance company will have a hell of a time denying coverage on the grounds that they're the same sex. Living wills also cannot force a defined benefit retirement plan to continue paying out benefits to your mate after you die.

My mother and stepfather lived together for 12 years before they finally got married. Same-sex issues aside, there are a ton of logistical assaches that come with not being legally married.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:32 PM
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Jack the Bagman
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My bad. I never really gave a shit. Still don't.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:36 PM
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Mugtoe
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bagman
Why would anyone want to validate, or be validated by, an institution that does not consider them valid?

Its just shit-disturbing drama. Go marry your fucking selves in a parking lot.


Hear, hear!

Why do I want to go through a breeder ritual and look for a pat on the head from the community that thinks of me as second-rate? I'll agree that there are some legal advantages to marriage, and I don't object to being allowed those same privileges; but I ain't puttin on no dress and walkin down an aisle just because mama did it and I feel victimized. Fuck that.

The other side to it, however, is that I want Sigmo to have all the same rights that any other partner would have in case of emergency or my death. I'd want him to be able to make the same decisions that a spouse would, and I'd want him afforded the same rights and courtesies that he would be if he were my wife. The way my health is, I could drop dead any day, and he'd have next to nobody to get him through it. Every little bit helps in that regard. Of course, the other side of that argument is that my death will likely be at his hands, so he'll get lots of state support in that event.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:37 PM
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Mugtoe
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quote:
Originally posted by FuhQall
Marriage is a christian term used for "the joining of man and woman in holy matrimony", Gay people should come up with their own fucking term for joining and stop whining, a living will can be drawn up in order to cover their partners in the event of death, this is the legal equivelant to marriage tie-ins.

God weeps and then kills a kitten everytime hetrosexually challenged persons attempt marriage.


You should read Boswell's book about Church-sanctioned queer unions in the Middle Ages. I think the title is something like "Christianity, Social Tolerance and Homosexuality". I think I got it wrong, but that's close. In any case, what you think is the truth about marriage and sexual orientation is likely a recent development in the Big Picture and has little to do with the way the world always was. And where do you get the idea that marriage is a Christian ceremony? Do you mean that Muslims and Hindus and atheists don't get married? I realize that it's a sacrament of the church, but it also predates it. Duh.

For that matter, if it weren't for about 300 Greeks who were all light in their sandals, we'd all be speaking Farsi right now anyway.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:42 PM
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skalie
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quote:
Originally posted by Cage
They can't go to city hall if their locality doesn't recognize same-sex marriages.


What happens if the person you are married to has a sex change?

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:48 PM
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Smug Git
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Just a reminder:

MANLOVE IS WRONG AND AN ABOMINATION IN THE EYES OF GOD.

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Jack the Bagman
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God frowns on men sucking cock.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 05:57 PM
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Sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by skalie
What happens if the person you are married to has a sex change?


my guess would be.. screaming, crying, breaking things.. and ultimately.. divorce.

unless you know, you're into that sort of thing.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 06:00 PM
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RiZZ
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quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe
...my death will likely be at his hands, so he'll get lots of state support in that event.


teeeheeee

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Old Post 02-20-2003 06:01 PM
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Sabine
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quote:
Originally posted by Jack the Bagman
God frowns on men sucking cock.


that would be so like God wouldn't it?
make something really damn appealing and then tell half of his children "you can't have it!"

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Old Post 02-20-2003 06:02 PM
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Cage
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quote:
Originally posted by skalie
What happens if the person you are married to has a sex change?


Unless you live in a state that allows same-sex marriages, I believe you're forced to have your sex changed, too. Otherwise you both go to prison. Fortunately, same-sex marriages are pretty much recognized there.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 06:11 PM
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Cage
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quote:
Originally posted by Sabine
that would be so like God wouldn't it?
make something really damn appealing and then tell half of his children "you can't have it!"


It's a small price to pay for the ability to piss while standing up. And burp the alphabet.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 06:13 PM
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Thumper
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1. Montana...where men are men and sheep are nervous.

2. Mug, I thought you liked to wear the dress?

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Old Post 02-20-2003 08:01 PM
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FuhQall
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quote:
Originally posted by nymbus

A living will can cover some of the healthcare issues, but there are more benefits to marriage than just being able to make healthcare decisions for your partner in the case of an emergency.

A living will determines who gets what and in what capacity they can retain such mentioned in the will. Healthcare has fuckall to do with it, a living will does not give someone the power of attorney over your life, that will never change until the law recognises a same-sex partnership as equal to a marriage (i.e. the partner will not be considered next of kin).

My point was to explain the benefits of a living will from the stance of when one party dies in a same-sex "marriage" they have no legal claim (if contested) to the properties and mutual assets accumulated whilst together. Where as in a legitimate marriage of opposite sex's have the sole claim to community of property contested or not, even in the case of one party dying intestate. When the creditors and tax people have taken their claim out, 100% of the remaining is the sole property of the next of kin, this is not so in same-sex marriage unless a living will is drawn.

Back to the issue of healthcare descisions, a named party outside of the "next of kin" realm must be made legal gaurdian in the event of loss of ability to decide ones own fate, a living will does not give you this right and never will.

You are however correct about the religous seperation of the term marriage in which I referred to it as such in humorous fashion.

Legal Lesson over, carry on.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 10:51 PM
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wonderaz
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The only limitations on marriage should be requiring both be of the same species.

That may not go over well in Scotland but that's not my problem.

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Old Post 02-20-2003 11:02 PM