Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Rio de los Brazos de Dios
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I have just watched a long and interesting press conference by the Prime Ministers of Spain and the UK concerning mostly their joint support of the US in the coming Iraq conflict. What impressed me more than all was the solid "togetherness" of these
two political leaders on every question raised.

I am no specialist in the political history of Europe but I believe that one would have to go way back in history to find the point at which Spain and England stood shoulder to shoulder against
France. Even in Napoleonic days it was not all of Spain that supported England.

Is it possible that Spain and England have a coimmon cause within the politics of the EU that cause them to line up so solidly against France? There is more here than meets the eye I think.

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Registered: Jun 2002
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I think Aznar is going to ask for a quid pro quo in the shape of Gibraltar, at some point. He's going against about 90% of his electorate and, as you point out, the two countries rarely see eye to eye (fishing rights, farm subsidies, violent british tourists etc etc etc). I think that in a few years, in return for backing Blair, we may see Spain get what it wants with regard to Gibraltar

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Registered: Nov 2001
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Good point, Funky. That could be it. Poor Gibraltar Apes.

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Never been to Gibraltar but I might have to. Apparently theres a fantastic brothel just across the border in Spain.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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Inb Algeciras across the Bay.

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If the swine Blair is trading Gibraltar away, then he is an evil bastard, moreso than I thought. Treacherous slime.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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Perhaps Brother Funky Rooster's suspicions are incorrect.

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Registered: Jun 2002
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British Governments itching to give it away. Just another headache for them. Although they'll probably state that they want to keep the naval facilities for their own use

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And they said that they wouldn't cede any sovereignty without the consent of the Gibraltarians (who overwhelmingly want to remain British).

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Why not make it an independent country, like Monaco, with EU responsible for external affairs and defense?

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Because by overwhelming majority the Gibraltarians want to be British, rather than independent. And it would probably go broke if it was independent.

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Aznar came to power on a platform of reform and privatization. He cited Thatcher as an example and a model. It is ironic that these two leaders now seem to feel united. I´d argue though that the unity between the two is more due to this immediate issue rather than across the board. Aznar is essentially an oportunist.

I´m not too sure what public opinion in the UK is like vis a vis attacking Iraq, but here, Aznar is in grave danger of loosing the next election soley on this issue. Before the Demonstrations nationwide the population was around 75% against the war. with only something like 15% wholey in favour. These numbers have changed, now it´s around 90% against the war. The general opinion is that Aznar does not give two hoots about the Iraqi people, Hussein or the people of NYC. He simply sees profit. What compounds this feeling has been the revelation of quite widespread oportunistic corruption in the past two years by his party, MPs sitting on the board of private firms, making massive profits during the privatisation of many industries. Largely at the expense of the blue collar workers who in many cases have been made redundant whilst still being owed months of wages, let alone any talk of redundancy packages. These may be unconnected, but the people feel that Aznar and the PP are only motivated by self interest.

As for ganging up on the French. The Spaniards dislike the French deeply. They feel, and to some extent with justification, that the French ignore the Spaniards (as do the Spaniards in turn forget that Portugal exists). I´ve heard French people say that "Europe ends at the Pirrenese, the rest is Africa". In terms of a long term alliance with Britain vs. the French, I don´t see this a viable argument. Spain traditionally has made most of it´s, not unsubstantial wealth, in South America. Most South American banks and telecom companies are Spanish owned. Yet Spain got a huge reality check when the Argentinian economy had its hiccup last year. Suddenly billions went down the toilet. Spains financial sector is now much more weary about putting too many eggs in the latin american basket. Spain needs to be part of Europe, socially and economically. By Europe, I mean France, Germany and Italy. It won´t be able to survive, nor wants to, on the crumbs that fall off the US-UK dinner table.

Gibraltar is a very important issue to the Spaniards. Until I moved here I didn´t realise to what extent it was. Spain is still a very patriotic and nationalistic country, they hate the fact that part of their land is occupied by the British. Especially since Customs and Excise on the Gibraltar side seems to be lax and uncooperative. Almost all contraband cigarretes come from Gibraltar. The amount of crime that exists around the rock is astounding. Aznar is going to leave government as an unpopular figure, he´d love to be remembered as the man who gave Gibraltar back to Spain. I get the feeling that London would love to get rid of it, but as always, it´s not seen as a vote winner.

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Registered: Jul 2001
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Gibraltans want to stay British because they´ve become wealthy because of it. Most of the workforce are Andalucians, who line up at the border each morning to cross into what they refer to as cowboy country (lawless and full of villians). In fact many Gib residents were born over the border. They wave the British flag for the cameras because it keeps them employed, even though they speak broken English.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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thoughtful post.

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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2810119.stm

The true reason. We are ganging up to annhilate the North American Ruddy Duck to save the Spanish White-Headed duck from extinction.

The Gibraltarians are mostly of Genoan descent, I believe (although there are some English living there too). They won't give two shits about the smuggling across the Spanish border, because the Spanish have been curtailing their movements into Spain through long border checks for political reasons as much as anti-smuggling ones. And, incidentally, Gibraltar was treated away to England in perpetuity; it isn't part of Spain and hasn't been since the agreement that England could have it. Quite apart from the bizarreness of the Spanish protesting this whilst being prepared to take serious action to keep possession of a goat-inhabited island off the coast of Africa, it isn't up to the Spanish, and the UK government should fulfill its obligation to its citizens and honour their choice, which is, at the moment, that they wish to remain British.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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The English are such a warm and welcoming people.

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They're violent. Just ask Smug.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mugtoe
They're violent. Just ask Smug.

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Smug, I find your loyalty to a bunch of Spaniards living in a tax haven at our expense somewhat puzzling. Give Gibraltar back to Spain for Gods sake. If they really want to be British they can smuggle themselves in and claim asylum like 107,000 people did last year.

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