Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10152

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...ress_abortion_1

quote:

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Sen. Rick Santorum (news, bio, voting record), said the legislation aimed to ban a procedure performed only after 20 weeks of pregnancy, and described it in graphic detail. The fetus is partially delivered, he said, and then a scissors is "thrust into the base of the skull and...the cranial contents removed. Just to describe it here has to send shivers down your back," he added.


He described it as a procedure that is "never medically necessary, not taught in any medical school in this country, not recommended," yet is performed more than 2200 times a year.


Sen. Barbara Boxer (news, bio, voting record), a Democrat, quickly countered that Congress should refrain from intruding on a decision between a woman and her doctor.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

good job.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Beatrice, Nebraska
Posts: 18808

"never medically necessary"

That's not entirely true, but it's rare that it is necessary.

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Registered: Sep 2001
Location: ........
Posts: 15003

What is this actually?

The unborn baby is over 20 weeks old, so they partially deliver it and then ram a pair of scissors into it's brain?

Too old for an abortion, so they kill it during childbirth? If they left it too long the thing popped out it would be murder?

Did I get that right?

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

yes skalie you got that right. That's why the abortion issue is such a fucking hot potato in America.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

Sounds to me like it will be a lobby thing, where pro-abortion people who are against this procedure will try and preserve it because they will see it as the beginning of a move to outlaw abortion in general (same as the gun lobby behave with any proposed restrictions, even if they seem pretty sensible to a lot of others. In the UK, the foxhunting lobby got support from the angling fraternity (even though many of them oppose foxhunting) because they feared that they were next). Sometimes, being a politician must be very distasteful, sometimes to the point where one would think that it were better to throw away one's career than to do what is necessary to keep it going great guns.

I might say, though, that this procedure doesn't bother me much more than any other style of abortion; I think that, to within a small amount, they are pretty much the same thing, morally. Although I would still support the legislation, precisely for the reasons that the pro-abortion people fear, which is to say that it might be the first step of many further steps. So they are right to fear, in some sense.

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Registered: Aug 2000
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Yes Skalie, that's pretty much what it is. They induce labor in the woman, and as soon as they can reach the head, they kill it. It's a rather delicate operation though, because they have to do it while the baby is in the birth canal. If it comes all the way free of the mother, then it is considered a birth, and the doctors have to do everything that they can to save the poor, vastly underdeveloped child.

I was very happy to hear this bill had passed the senate.

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Registered: Sep 2001
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Older than 20 weeks, younger than ????

Don't tell me they are doing this to babies that have reached their full term?

Isn't the 12 week milestone for abortion due to the fact that a fetus is fully developed at that stage and only needs to grow?

Whatever faith in humanity I still had has faded somewhat due to this thread.

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Registered: Aug 2001
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I think that it is 24 weeks for abortions here in the UK, but I am not completely sure. I always assumed that 'third trimester' meant after 24 weeks. Am I wrong on this?

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Registered: Sep 2001
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No you're quite right Smug, I googled it, abortion in the UK is legal up to 24 weeks, two doctors need to sign an agreement.

Even found a photo...



Um, what is this doing in politico btw?

Last edited by skalie on 03-15-2003 at 07:55 PM

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Registered: Aug 2000
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Skalie, abortion is a major political issue in the US. It's seen as a litmus test for Democrats. They can disagree with any of the party line, but they don't dare come out as anti-abortion if they are serious about getting anywhere in their career.

Until this bill is made law, I don't think that there are any time limits on when you can have an abortion. Though, they may draw the line at when the baby is viable. After the first trimester, there are restrictions, and it's generally tougher to get an abortion (most clinics won't touch it, I believe), but it's not yet illegal.

There aren't that many partial-birth abortions performed compared to the more typical D&Cs and to a lesser extent D&Es, but as far as I'm concerned, even 1 is too many.

And no, this procedure is not medically necesary. If the mother's life is in danger, doctors have the option of inducing labor, or performing a c-section and trying to save the baby's life.

After the 20th week, the baby starts moving in the mother's stomach. She can feel the child kicking, turning over, stretching, hiccuping. She can feel the life inside her, and any woman who's experienced it can tell you that.

Smug, a pregnancy is considered full term at 38 weeks (though 40 is the average length). I believe the trimesters are divided up at the 13th and 26th weeks, though I may be off a week or two.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

Is it not true that abortion is also a sensitive issue for republicans, too? I seem to remember a thread that said that politicians of either stripe basically had to take a position on it when they are campaigning (and the position is pretty correlated with which party you are in).

Does Ted Kennedy (famous catholic shitbag) speak out in favour of abortion too?

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Registered: Aug 2000
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Did some research:

quote:

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Though Roe, Doe and Casey limit the power of states to regulate or ban abortion, nearly every state has some sort of law limiting abortion. About 4/5 ban non-therapeutic abortion in the last three months of pregnancy. Many have parental notice or consent laws for minors, waiting periods, informed consent and statistical reporting requirements for all abortions. Most of these latter types of legislation were ruled unconstitutional during the period form Roe to Thornburg, but have been mostly upheld since the Webster and Casey precedents replaced the "strict scrutiny" standard with the more flexible "undue burden" test. Since Casey, as medical science pushes the line of viability further back, states have been allowed to proscribe abortion earlier than under Roe. Some states have responded by adding viability test requirements.

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Registered: May 2002
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Am I the only one on this forum who really doesn't think abortion is a big deal?

As crude as it sounds, and as unwilling as you all may be to accept my point of view, I honestly couldn't give a shit if babys were aborted up to about a year or a year and a half AFTER they were born.

Symoblically speaking, I'm sure they are these sacred human icons for most of you, and I can empathize... but personally, to me they are no different than silly little animals. Right up until the time they are able to act socially and think idependantly, I have no more pity for them than I do the common giraffe. And I'm not talking about these pathetic early stages of social development that pscyhologists know results in specific personality traits... thats shit. To me babies are these little caccoons, sure, with enough support they might turn into a butterfly, but fuck, they aren't there yet. Kill 'em as much as you want, thats my two cents.

edit: yes, if it were my baby, of course i would have some sort of attachment and feel differently. i also wouldn't kill my pet cow to make a hamburger, it doesnt mean i'm no longer going to eat beef.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
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As long as this law isn't used as a foot in the door to outlaw all abortions, I'm all for it. If you can't make up your mind about whether to abort in the first 5 months, carry to term and give it up for adoption. It's a chickenshit way to warm up your cold feet.

Exceptions to this should be allowed in cases of necessity, but I'm not capable of defining those. But I'd hate to see a woman die because her doctor was afraid he might be breaking a law. But overall, this is a good law methinks.

Just to make sure I'm understanding, let me confirm that that the induced labor is part of the abortion process, right? This is the way they do it when the baby's too big for the vacuum cleaner, correct?

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Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Nutrimentia
Just to make sure I'm understanding, let me confirm that that the induced labor is part of the abortion process, right? This is the way they do it when the baby's too big for the vacuum cleaner, correct?

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