Registered: Nov 2001
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In driving home from a medical appointment in Ft Worth today I listened to a local radio talk show type (Mark Davis) that featured
a give and take interview with several Russian University students who are in Dallas for some reason not known to me. They were very articulate , spoke flawless English and were very diverse in the group concerning their views on the US coming hassle with Iraq. They were also very candid. The following quotes may not be exact so accept them as paraphases. I list this because Davis' answer is one of those things I hear that I wish I had said:

Russian---Why is it that you American get so 8upset when the French disagree with you?

Davis--We don't. Americans are masters of disagreement even among ourselves and welcome it as the presentation of a different view for discussion, but I think Europeans fail to grasp the fact that Americans are very passionate about their own defense and very reluctant to commit any part of its implementation to a foreign power. In matters of defending our family, our country, and ourselves we do not want to have to depend on anyone or deviate from our own plans for anyone.
Byut even there we don't mind your disagreement and your criticism but heaven help those who interfere with our self-defense. What possible laudable purpose could France acheive by
keeping us from defending ourselves from Saddam Hussein.We do not ask France to be involved nor to donate to the cost in either lives or money. All we ask is that they get out of our way."

The Russian group was about equally divided in assessing this statement by Davis concerning the French.

I noticed that gasoline prices dropped six cents since I filled up yesterday. From 1.54 to 1.48 per US gallon. The Californians are going to be claiming that there is a vast Texas gasoline conspiracy
because they are paying 2.04 per US gallon. Due to a little thing called State tax. Prices are for regukar. Can you use regular in a Porsche.?
ah well.

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quote:

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...but I think Europeans fail to grasp the fact that Americans are very passionate about their own defense and very reluctant to commit any part of its implementation to a foreign power.

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Smug, I won't pretend to be an expert on European Public Opinion but I will tell you that I think that Davis put his finger right in the heart of a big difference between Americans and Europeans. Americans inately distrust international agreements. Americans do not believe thjat any other country or bloc of countries can be or should be as concerned about Americas relationship with Iraq as America is. I am not arguing that it is good or bad but I am saying that it is that way. Many European countries (Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Portuga, Hungary, Denmark to name a few) simply do not have the capability to defend themselves in this modern world. I think that it is very natural for them to think in terms of collectively defending themselves. An American thinks, whether it is true or not that he is safer when he depends on the US unimpeded by the will of others to defend him. Most of us believe that the US in this World
can defend itself against any nation or combination of nations arrayed against it. That is not bravado nor arrogance. We have chosen to sink a significant portion of our national wealth into defense related programs in order to retain the independence I outline aabove. Nearly all of the European countries--other than the "new Europeanj countries" have chosen to invest their natuional wealth in social programs and neglected their defense establishment and publicly stated that it was their purpose to do so. In fact it has caused a certain segment of our own population
to point to Europe and say "We should do that. We should invest more money in our people and our environment and coincentrate on being friends with the world then we won't need a defense apparatus"

I am happy, for onbe, that this view did not prevail any more than it did. If the world were full of harmless old peanut farmers then
that might be all right, but it is not. As the WTC attack proved, as Saddam's 6000 liters of anthrax proves, as Kim Jon Il's supposed two nukes prove we still need to be able to defend ourselves all alone.

We cherish allies, especially UK. But we don't want to be put in the position of needing them---like we need Turkey to see things our way right now. Turkey is a staunch ally Very few people know just how staunch an ally Turkey was in the cold war days even when they were right under the Russian guns. I am glad that even if the new Prime Minister can't turn the Turkish pParliament around in a hurry that the result will be merely bother and not utter defeat.

I am sorry that Denmark, Belgium, Spain can't have that sense of self assurance and must depend on others to help them against a common foe but they didn't concentrate on it for fifty cold war years and we did.

I think Davis had it pretty well pegged. So did some of his Russian visitors.

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Those countries that you mentioned aren't really able to defend themselves unless we help them, sure; they would be stupid to expect it under all circumstances, though, obviously.

I personally think that Davis has precisely missed the point by not appreciating European reservations and attributing them to an attitude that isn't widely held. The absoutely fundamental difference is that some countries think that the US is mistaken or dissembling when it says that Iraq poses an immediate threat to its national security, and that is why some Europeans aren't keen on immediate military action against Iraq. And it is entirely reasonable, given that predicate, that they would oppose the proposed military action. It would be great if it was a 'us good, them bad' situation, but it isn't as far as I can see (and believe me, I have no reason to be nice about our European neighbours but fair's fair).

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Bit unfair to have a go at Belgium, I thought. Not exactly in a prime position to defend itself, is it. OK for you guys. Handy having 3500 miles water to one side, 7000 miles to the other and the awesome military threat of Mexico lurking beneath.
As a Belgian, Weaselspoor would be mightily upset by your derogatory comments of this fine, upstanding and alcoholic little country.

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Tell WeaselSpoor to answer his PMs, Rooster. I need to know when your festival is and when you guys are going to be in Madrid, so I can buy tickets with assurance.

Ok. As you were.

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Weaselspoor is in switzerland. I can give you his email if you want

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I didn't say anything bad about Belgium. All I said was that they were incapable of defending themselves from all comers and were thus inclined to think in terms of collective3 defense whereas the US does have the capability to defend itself and thus thinks in terms of self defense and none of you guys have said anything to make me think otherwise. You reinforce my argument Smug. You say that the European Countries are not convinced of the immediacy and extent of the danger to US interests that Iraq imposes and what Mark Davis and I are telling you is that we don't think that it should be up to the European assessment of the danger of our position . We--we happy few--we band of brothers will decide when we are in danger it is not Europe and Africa to decide. We want no permanent presence in
Iraq---we do care what form of government is instituted there and that it is a stable sort of government that does not overly restrict its citizens with torture and death. And yes the Belgians do make the world's best beer. They must fortify it.

It is becoming appallingly apparent to the average American that
Jacque Chirac's main aim out of all of this is to bolster France's position in the EU and vs Nato and to detract from the stature and power of American influence in the world----and to maintain the lucrative economic pursuits French companies have with Iraq.

I will have to say that I think Mr Davis' analysis is right on the mark--and I have heard it on the radio all day as I toddled around my business.

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Originally posted by oxsan
You reinforce my argument Smug. You say that the European Countries are not convinced of the immediacy and extent of the danger to US interests that Iraq imposes and what Mark Davis and I are telling you is that we don't think that it should be up to the European assessment of the danger of our position .

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I ought to add, though, that I am not talking about the French 'man on the street', who, I suspect, is as ill-informed, opiniated and ignorant as men on streets in our own countries. I was thinking about the general position of the leaders, who are not stupid or ignorant nor manifestly evil, and also about people who have taken time to think through the whole thing. The average 'man in the street' in London here will not have spent a great deal of time considering things carefully even if he has spent a long time discussing it in the pub. And I don't divorce myself from that failing either; in any event, we are always the worst people to judge ourselves. I am probably as bad as any of them and just don't know it.

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Smug, part of the "arrogance" which Europeans ascribe to Americans is wrapped up in the fact that we are proud to be Americans and can't picture ourselves as anything else. We are a bit like the Pharisee in the Bible who prayed in the Temple "Thank God I was born a man." I would agree with the feminists who find that offensive. I also can understand that some foreigners see us in the same role as that Pharisee when we pray (albeit at the altar of commerce) "Thank God I was born an American".

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On the subject of facing new and unexpected threats, I walked out of a lecture by the Senior Counsel at the Russian embassy ( top spook) on Russian attitudes to European security structures, and was hit in the chops by a paper aeroplane launched at me by a German Major-General who, I might add, should have known better as he nearly had my eye out.

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quote:

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originally posted by oxsan
In fact it has caused a certain segment of our own population to point to Europe and say "We should do that. We should invest more money in our people and our environment and coincentrate on being friends with the world then we won't need a defense apparatus"

I am happy, for one, that this view did not prevail any more than it did. If the world were full of harmless old peanut farmers then that might be all right, but it is not. As the WTC attack proved, as Saddam's 6000 liters of anthrax proves, as Kim Jon Il's supposed two nukes prove we still need to be able to defend ourselves all alone.

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quote:

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Originally posted by oxsan
Smug, part of the "arrogance" which Europeans ascribe to Americans is wrapped up in the fact that we are proud to be Americans and can't picture ourselves as anything else. We are a bit like the Pharisee in the Bible who prayed in the Temple "Thank God I was born a man." I would agree with the feminists who find that offensive. I also can understand that some foreigners see us in the same role as that Pharisee when we pray (albeit at the altar of commerce) "Thank God I was born an American".

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mmmsivart, perhaps in about another fifty years when you have studied the American character for the same number of years that I have you will agree with the conclusions I have offered in this thread. If not don't expect to look me up to gloat, I'll probably not be around. And I was speaking for myself as I always do.

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