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Dingle
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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Is this what we have in store for Iraq?

quote:
Before executing the International Red Cross worker, the Taliban gunmen made a satellite telephone call to their superior for instructions: Kill him?


Kill him, the order came back, and Ricardo Munguia, whose body was found with 20 bullet wounds last month, became the first foreign aid worker to die in Afghanistan since the Taliban's ouster from power18 months ago.


The manner of his death suggests the Taliban is not only determined to remain a force in this country, but is reorganizing and reviving its command structure.


There is little to stop them. The soldiers and police who were supposed to be the bedrock of a stable postwar Afghanistan have gone unpaid for months and are drifting away.


At a time when the United States is promising a reconstructed democratic postwar Iraq, many Afghans are remembering hearing similar promises not long ago.


Instead, what they see is thieving warlords, murder on the roads, and a resurgence of Taliban vigilantism.


"It's like I am seeing the same movie twice and no one is trying to fix the problem," said Ahmed Wali Karzai, the brother of Afghanistan's president and his representative in southern Kandahar. "What was promised to Afghans with the collapse of the Taliban was a new life of hope and change. But what was delivered? Nothing. Everyone is back in business."


Karzai said reconstruction has been painfully slow — a canal repaired, a piece of city road paved, a small school rebuilt.


"There have been no significant changes for people," he said. "People are tired of seeing small, small projects. I don't know what to say to people anymore."


When the Taliban ruled they forcibly conscripted young men. "Today I can say 'we don't take your sons away by force to fight at the front line,'" Karzai remarked. "But that's about all I can say."


From safe havens in neighboring Pakistan, aided by militant Muslim groups there, the Taliban launched their revival to coincide with the war in Iraq and capitalize on Muslim anger over the U.S. invasion, say Afghan officials.


Karzai said the Taliban are allied with rebel commander Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, supported by Pakistan and financed by militant Arabs.


The attacks have targeted foreigners and the threats have been directed toward Afghans working for international organizations.


Abdul Salam is a military commander for the government. Last month he was stopped at a Taliban checkpoint in the Shah Wali Kot district of Kandahar and became a witness to the killing of Munguia, a39 -year-old water engineer from El Salvador.


After stopping Munguia and his three-vehicle convoy, gunmen made a phone call to Mullah Dadullah, a powerful former Taliban commander who happens to have an artificial leg provided by the Red Cross.


Mimicking a telephone receiver by cupping a hand on his ear, Salam recalled the gunmen's side of the conversation.


"I heard him say Mullah Dadullah," he said. "I heard him ask for instructions."


When the conversation ended the Taliban moved quickly, Salam said. They shoved Munguia behind one of the vehicles, siphoned gasoline from the tanks and used it to set the vehicles on fire.

Munguia was standing nearby. One Taliban raised his Kalashnikov rifle and fired at Manguia.

Then they told the others: "You are working with kafirs (unbelievers). You are slaves of Karzai and Karzai is a slave to America."

"This time we will let you go because you are Afghan," Salam remembered them saying, "but if we find you again and you are still working for the government we will kill you."

In the latest killing in southern Afghanistan, gunmen on Thursday shot to death Haji Gilani, a close Karzai ally, in southern Uruzgan province. Gilani was one of the first people to shelter Karzai when he secretly entered Afghanistan to foment a rebellion against the Taliban in late2001 .

International workers in Kandahar don't feel safe anymore and some have been moved from the Kandahar region to safer areas, said John Oerum, southwest security officer for the United Nations. But Oerum is trying to find a way to stay in southern Afghanistan. To abandon it would be to let the rebel forces win, he says.

The Red Cross, with 150 foreign workers in Afghanistan, have suspended operations indefinitely.

Today most Afghans say their National Army seems a distant dream while the U.S.-led coalition continues to feed and finance warlords for their help in hunting for Taliban and al-Qaida fighters.

Karzai, the president's brother, says: "We have to pay more attention at the district level, build the administration. We know who these Taliban are, but we don't have the people to report them when they return."

Khan Mohammed, commander of Kandahar's2 nd Corps, says his soldiers haven't been paid in seven months, and his fighting force has dwindled. The Kandahar police chief, Mohammed Akram, said he wants 50 extra police in each district where the Taliban have a stronghold. But he says his police haven't been paid in months and hundreds have just gone home.

"There is no real administration all over Afghanistan, no army, no police," said Mohammed. "The people do not want the Taliban, but we have to unite and build, but we are not."

http://www.khilafah.com/home/catego...ID=6786&TagID=2

even after considering the source (iraqwar.ru) this article doesn't do much for my faith in the coalition. The promises we made in Afghanistan are the same promises we're making in Iraq. I can't understand how we can operate this way... our lies and propoganda are just as bad as Iraqs...

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Old Post 04-08-2003 03:08 PM
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mudded
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It is sad isnt it.

The first casualty of war is always truth.

There are agendas, and there are agendas presented to the public.

Traditional western Barbarism is not just a thing of the past, it persists still.

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Old Post 04-08-2003 03:47 PM
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euphorbia
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first, Iraq isnt Afghanistan. Iraq has resources and is a pretty secular place. Afghanistan was and is pretty destitute...what do they have? Opium and sand and war lords? I dont think many can argue that we shouldn’t have gone in and did what we did in Afghanistan though. And second, yes consider the source, and third so what does the above story mean? There are shit bag fundamentalists in Afghanistan who are eager to kill people for being "kafirs" and so we should...do what?
Anyone who informed themselves on this subject knew rebuilding Afghanistan wasn’t going to be easy due to the lack of resources and their level of destitution, as far as Im concerned the main issue of importance in Afghanistan is "is it a better place to live for the people do they have hope and the freedom to prosper"



Source: UN OCHA Integrated Regional Information Network
Date: 8 Apr 2003

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pakistan: Focus on Afghan refugee education

[This report does not necessarily reflect the views of the United Nations]
ISLAMABAD, 8 April (IRIN) - As hundreds of thousands of Afghans return to rebuild their homes and communities from the ashes of 23 years of conflict, most come poorly equipped with little or no education to assist them. According to the office of the UN High Commissioner for Refugees (UNHCR), 87 percent of the 1.6 million Afghans returning from Pakistan to their country last year had no education.

Shakila Jan, a bright-eyed seven-year-old Afghan refugee schoolgirl at the mud-built school of Maskeenabad Afghan refugee informal settlement near Pakistan's sprawling capital, Islamabad, knows a little about the country she has never seen, but that's about all. "I want to read and I want to learn sewing and embroidery," she told IRIN.

Jan and another 570 children in the slums now have access to a few grades of education in the two schools established by the UN Educational Cultural and Scientific Organisation (UNESCO). Their rudimentary school building has no electricity, and the pupils squat on the ground, but they are the lucky few among the 15,000 children of school age among the 80,000 Afghans living there.

Jan's ageing father is ill, and her three bothers - all young boys - are the family's breadwinners. They work long hours in the nearby fruit market. Unlike the 1.5 million Afghan refugees living in UNHCR-assisted refugee camps all over the country, the Afghans living in the Maskeenabad settlement, like hundreds of thousands of Afghan refugees living in Pakistani cities, receive very little assistance compared to the Afghans in the camps who have some access to health care, education and sanitation.

"Over the years, enough attention was not paid to the professional aspects of education such as training and curriculum development," Ingeborg Breines, UNESCO's director in Islamabad, told IRIN.

Experts maintain that the shortage of common teaching materials, the inability to maintain school infrastructure and a lack of community participation in education were some of the major reasons for the fact that many Afghan refugees living in Pakistan for decades have remained illiterate.

According to the refugee agency, 20 to 25 percent of the 1.8 to two million Afghans refugees living in Pakistani refugee villages and cities are school-age children. Half of this number are estimated to live in camps. The agency caters for some 170,000 pupils in almost 500 schools with some 5,000 teachers.

However, only three to four percent of Afghan refugee children make it beyond six years of basic schooling to secondary and further levels of education. It is estimated that less then 30 percent of the pupils are girls.

While primary education exists in many camps, many Afghans in Pakistani urban centres cannot access any educational services, which explains the high percentage of returnees to Afghanistan last year being illiterate. Some 82 percent of the 1.6 million Afghans going back last year left Pakistani cities, with a minority hailing from the camps.

Although many Afghans have established private or self-help schools in the cities, these are often beyond the means of many, and a large number closed after Afghans started returning to their country following the fall of the hardline Taliban regime in 2001. Those that remain continue to teach decades-old curricula.

"Education is very important for refugees, because it's the only baggage that they can take back to their country," Somoratne Ekanayke, a refugee-education expert with the German government's project, Basic Education for Afghan Refugees (BEFAR), told IRIN from the northwestern Pakistani city of Peshawar.

He added that providing education to a socially and culturally diverse group such as Afghan refugees was challenging, because they were scattered in large numbers in different locations. "It becomes still more complex when one has to plan out systems that would answer their futuristic needs, taking into consideration the diverse socioeconomic and stressful backgrounds," he said.

With the ongoing repatriation of Afghan refugees from Pakistan, donor interest in their education is diminishing. "It is clear that donors' interest in the Afghan refugees in Pakistan is going down," Breines maintained.

She added that the Afghan government was eager to receive skilled people who can contribute to the ongoing reconstruction of their country. "We must keep in mind that the situation in the host country [Pakistan] is not better either," she maintained.

With only half of its 140 million people literate, Pakistan is struggling to improve access to and the quality of primary education for its own citizens, quite apart from the millions of refugees the country still hosts. This, experts believe, partially explains the sad state of education for Afghan refugee children in the country.

Most of the Afghan refugees in the Maskeenabad schools have never seen a computer, while their curriculum would barely match that of any modern educational system around the world. But the issue is not just confined to lack of resources. In the 1980s, the Afghan mujahidin designed a curriculum for Afghan refugee schools which had a largely theological content, and with an overwhelmingly anti-communist thrust.

Although the curriculum was revised in the 1990s, and again early last year after the fall of the Taliban, it has a long way to go to come anywhere near modern standards. The system feeds extremism, say some observers. They argue that the Taliban were the products of the networks of Islamic religious seminaries, or madrasas, which mushroomed when the international community failed to provide good-quality secular education to Afghan refugees in Pakistan.

Cultural attitudes also play a part in keeping Afghan refugee children ignorant. According to Shahnaz Akhter, a field director with the British NGO Ockenden International, traditional and conservative attitudes of parents and other such notions prevent many students from attending schools. "They think that education is the state's responsibility, and they do not need to invest in it," she told IRIN.

She suggested that, given declining international assistance, Afghan refugees in the country should have access to the primary education services available to Pakistani citizens. "Teacher training is another such area which needs lots of improvement," Akhter said. UNESCO and BEFAR are developing a database of Afghan teachers that would help address the need to source more teachers.

Meanwhile, in the mud-walled school in Maskeenabad, 12-year-old Zabihullah reads a poem about his country from his book. "We have books and pencils, but we should have football and cricket at school," he told IRIN. With most of the children from the squalid camp working as scavengers of garbage in Islamabad, and an uncertain future in Afghanistan, Zabihullah's thirst for a decent education look a long way off.

[ENDS]

http://www.reliefweb.int/w/rwb.nsf/...7a?OpenDocument

We aren’t tinkle bell, we cant sprinkle magic dust on the problem and it all of a sudden turns beautiful. It doesn’t seem your expectations are very realistic.

Is it better than it was? Even while our troops are still fighting there? Shit, Id say that’s pretty fantabulous.

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Old Post 04-08-2003 04:05 PM
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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by mudded


The first casualty of war is always truth.




what did you hear that you feel was a lie?

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Old Post 04-08-2003 04:06 PM
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mudded
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It is an axiom that my grandad used.

parties in a conflict will always emphasize the aspects of reality that will benefit them most. Sometimes things will be fabricated, other times events will be distorted, or only partially opened to the public.

both world wars was full of lies on both sides, I still dont feel fully informed on Gulf war 1 or the balkan conflicts. Post war things often get worse as the fabricated reality of whoever is winning typically get elevated to historical "fact".

None of the media are "fair and balanced", especially not the media in the countries involved.
The iraqi media are unmitigated mouthpieces for Saddam. Fox news is independent, but seem so totally intent on being patriotic, that they become nothing but mouthpeices as well.

All western media censor themselves in this conflict, to a varying degree to suit the public "mood". Al jazeera does the same. The US/UK military decides what reportes get imbedded where, and what they can talk about.
I dont suspect that the embeds are lying, but I dont think that they cover the war in a representative way either.

But this is the nature of human communication, and especially when authority tries to win support for it's cause (In all political systems at all times).

Feh

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Old Post 04-08-2003 05:27 PM
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Mugtoe
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We have never destroyed Afghanistan. We have helped rid them twice of oppressive tyrannies that we did not create, and somehow we are responsible for the fact that they are a backwards, warlike and destitute country that has never exactly been on the cutting edge of advancing creation. It IS in our best interest to do as much as possible to secure order and stability in that region, but it is NOT our responsibility. One way to help would be to make a collective ashtray out of Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and Iran and Syria for starters, but I don't think that would play as well on the world stage as it would in Peoria.

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Old Post 04-08-2003 05:28 PM
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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe
We have never destroyed Afghanistan. We have helped rid them twice of oppressive tyrannies that we did not create...


I'm not sure that we didn't contribute to the rise of the Taliban and the (less) unpleasant regime that they replaced, by that aid that we gave them in fighting the Soviet Union. That is where Bin Laden cut his teeth, too.

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Old Post 04-08-2003 05:32 PM
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Smug Git
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But in any case, the issue under discussion is whether the promises made to Afghanistan (and the international community) and what would happen after the effort to fuck up the taliban, are being met. Because if they aren't, why should anyone buy into promises on Iraq and on any future conquests (particularly if those potential future targets aren't intrinsically wealthy)?

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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by mudded
snip



yes of course we all know that, that’s why assume we are smart enough to see through that and when people post I figure we have moved past the obvious to the meat. So, considering that the media is tainted, and assuming we are all smart enough to know, and knowing of course those in charge are probably going to highlight the good parts and those who never really supported it the bad... what is you’re realistic summation of the situation? I have no reason to believe youre not smart enough to use both sides, extract the substance from both considering what I would guess we all know about sources and form your opinion.

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mudded
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I dont assume that I am smart enough to see through it. It just seems to me that the media bias is so thick that it becomes unreliable as a source of info.

My summation?, hmmm
1) It does seem like we are winning militarily. (surprise surprise)

2) The Iraqi peoples seem to react as follows.
- some think they are being liberated from saddam.
- Some hate the invasion as much as the regime.
- Some support saddam and oppose the invasion.
- Some dont give a damn who is in power, as long as they are left alone.

3) It does seem like we are losing the "hearts and minds" (=propaganda) war in the broader middle east (which could change, depending on how post-war reconstruction & the palestinian situation is handled). If we do, we can look forward to more terrorism at home and abroad.

4) to get to where we are now, in the minds of most of the world, we have violated the UN charter, which brings us back to bilateral diplomacy. This has some inherent dangers in it, as nations all across the globe are now free to agressively use military options to achieve political goals.

The UN is dead (it was terminally faulty anyway), and we need to look for a replacement. I for one would like to see institutions of democratically established law fill the void of international anarchy, but people seem stuck in the paradigm of "sovereign" nation states - and we will continue to have the paradox of "law within - anarchy without" that is the reason why we have wars in the first place.

that, in broad terms is my summation.

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Old Post 04-08-2003 06:11 PM
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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by mudded


My summation?, hmmm
1) It does seem like we are winning militarily. (surprise surprise)

2) The Iraqi peoples seem to react as follows.
- some think they are being liberated from saddam.
- Some hate the invasion as much as the regime.
- Some support saddam and oppose the invasion.
- Some dont give a damn who is in power, as long as they are left alone.

3) It does seem like we are losing the "hearts and minds" (=propaganda) war in the broader middle east (which could change, depending on how post-war reconstruction & the palestinian situation is handled). If we do, we can look forward to more terrorism at home and abroad.

4) to get to where we are now, in the minds of most of the world, we have violated the UN charter, which brings us back to bilateral diplomacy. This has some inherent dangers in it, as nations all across the globe are now free to agressively use military options to achieve political goals.

The UN is dead (it was terminally faulty anyway), and we need to look for a replacement. I for one would like to see institutions of democratically established law fill the void of international anarchy, but people seem stuck in the paradigm of "sovereign" nation states - and we will continue to have the paradox of "law within - anarchy without" that is the reason why we have wars in the first place.

that, in broad terms is my summation.




and a nice summation it was.
I dont agree with all of it, but agree with a lot of it.
I dont agree with the hearts and minds stuff...we never had them, and dont agree we violated the UN charter (I know you said what most of the world feels and not necessarily what you feel, and since Im no diplomat I dont much value mass groundless opinion)...and I dont agree with you on what the UN should be...but I think your opinion is mostly fair and think that a smart fair realistic person can use the news to be informed...I dont think all news reports are lies, maybe just tainted by the personalities that touched them...of course some are lies. Its like playing where is waldo I guess.

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Smug Git
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As regards 'hearts and minds', there is a difference between being unpopular and having an increase in attempts at devastating terrorism. I don't think that the aim was to ameliorate the former, but hopefully to prevent the latter (and possible to reduce the events of the latter).

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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
As regards 'hearts and minds', there is a difference between being unpopular and having an increase in attempts at devastating terrorism. I don't think that the aim was to ameliorate the former, but hopefully to prevent the latter (and possible to reduce the events of the latter).



hopefully we can make a situation where governments will find it is in their best interest to keep an eye on people who would attempt "devastating terrorism" to operate in their countries. I dont think it will prolific to more terrorism, I think right now they would hit us any time they could as it is. Removing their resources and putting the watch on them esp by governments that may not have bothered or paid to much attention will stifle them and make it harder to operate. During this Iraq conflict we have had to Islamic leaders proclaim fatwa in our favor rather than against us....Im not sure that has happened before.
I think in Iraq the public opinion of us will be high for a while after liberation much like in france...then maybe our novelty will wear off ...maybe we will get another nifty statue out of it.

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mudded
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U4B:
"I dont much value mass groundless opinion"

This is a shame, as "mass groundless opinion" is responsible for countless wars, merciless violence, opression and terrorism.

Millions have gleefully joined into combat because of "mass groundless opinion".

Opinion sparks action, and action is often violent.
I think that opinion matters, especially the opinion of millions (maybe even more than a billion, but there is no way to tell for sure) of people.

That opinion may determine our future safety.

Edit: damn grammatic syntax

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Old Post 04-08-2003 08:13 PM
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euphorbia
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quote:
Originally posted by mudded
U4B:
"I dont much value mass groundless opinion"

This is a shame, as "mass groundless opinion" is responsible for countless wars, merciless violence, opression and terrorism.

Millions have gleefully joined into combat because of "mass groundless opinion".

Opinion sparks action, and action is often violent.
I think that opinion matters, especially the opinion of millions (maybe even more than a billion, but there is no way to tell for sure) of people.

That opinion may determine our future safety.

Edit: damn grammatic syntax



I agree, Id point to the hate language being used by most of the "anti war" crowd...but why should I do anything but detest it? There is so much eagerness involved, they wont hear anything other than what they want to hear...it dangerous, its destructive it should be confronted (though its usually futile) ...but certainly not valued (as valued I mean given validity or respect as meritorious) and not seen for anything other than what it is.

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Old Post 04-08-2003 09:47 PM
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mudded
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I agree that hate language is counter-productive, And I lament the presence of it in both camps.

I am pretty solidly based in the anti-war camp, but I deplore the lack of honest communication displayed by many protestors.

I agreed with gulf war one, but I am not persuaded, at present, that military action in Iraq is (was) the best long term solution for minimizing threats to the west.

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