Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Sad to say, I have quite a few friends who have extremely low self-esteem. Its manifestation runs the gamut from simple self-ridicule to outright depression.

I personally have always had a pretty brutal self-critical streak but at some point in the last few years there was some kind of maturing process or turning point and I seem to have a much more realistic image of myself than I did when I was, say, 18.

I go through peaks and troughs like everyone else but some people seem to stay in the troughs and never get out. I find myself wondering if this is entirely clinical/physical (ie, chemical imbalance) or if people's lifestyles or background has more to do with it.

In a sense this is just the old nature/nuture question but today I was just kicking the idea around which I read in CS Lewis.

It seems as if self-contempt, whatever its source, is the best starting-point for contempt of or even cruelty towards others, for cynicism, anxiety, apathy. I know good-looking men and women who are convinced that they are unattractive, and intelligent people who believe that they are stupid. And so in the end they bar themselves from quite a few things that would contribute to their happiness, and so it becomes a kind of self-fulfilling prophecy or vicious cycle.

It's during these low times that instead of people drinking to get happy with friends, they drink (or use other drugs) to buffer themselves against the world; or they have sex with people to try and make themselves feel better, and of course it doesn't work. In fact either can make someone feel worse.

I don't know how people rise up out of these valleys but as for myself...paradoxically...what always helps is just...laughing at myself. All of my problems suddenly seem so absurd and trivial--in comparison to what? I dunno. I know it's strange, doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Maybe it's just the magic of not taking oneself too seriously.

Well. Anyway. Just some ideas floating in my cranium, offerred for your delectation.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: the 45th Parallel
Posts: 127

Good morrow dear Squee, and you have pretty much nailed it on the proverbial head.... happiness comes from within... ask the Dali Lama... it is very easy to sink into 'poor me' world when the world around seems so cold and mindless. Having lived in countries where there is true poverty and suffering has cured me of ever indulging myself in that much self pity for my place in life. No matter how bad it can get, it can always be worse. Ask the good people of the Ivory Coast in Africa... they have no oil or diamonds to get W. Bush's help (he even took away their and other poor countries funding for family planning as his first pen stroke in office... great guy (puke gag) but another subject entirely), so they are being slaughtered... but some asshole in Jersey is thinking his life sucks enough to eat a bullet because he can't make the payments on his BMW and his 3rd wife wants more alimony... boo hoo...
you are only as happy as you want to be, unless there is a chemical imbalance, but according to the drug companies, we ALL have a chemical imbalance...
It's a sick world... out there... I stay... In here....
"there is nothing so sacred or holy in all the world that it cannot be made fun of...." keep laughing...

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: the 45th Parallel
Posts: 127

will I have to show my tits again for spelling Dali Lhama wrong???

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Mountains
Posts: 4689

quote:

---

Originally posted by squee
which I read in CS Lewis.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Baba Kueria
Posts: 3146

I can relate to the self fulfilling prophecy and vicious cycle which comes about from denying oneself happiness. In my case, I think it was contempt for others that came first, on a very broad and general level, leading to the apathy and self contempt that I live with now.

It's rooted in how I saw the world as a child. As an adult, that pure and innocent worldview must be compromised in order to co-exist with human culture. So, for me to be happy and/or rid of the contempt and loathing of humanity (self included) I would have to shed everything I believe in, effectually becoming someone else. I do that occasionally, but at best these are the 'peaks' you talk about squee, and I recognise them as temporary and illusory distractions from the truth, where the 'truth' is an absolute pisser which is always waiting to drag me back into depression at the first moment of idleness. Luckily for me, happiness isn't something I place a great deal of importance on.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Sabine: Screwtape Letters.

I don't know if it's cause or effect but I have noticed the not-looking-forward-to-anything phenomenon too. I have noticed that people in such a state will forgo real pleasures (human company, the beauty of nature, etc.) to do the same repetetive shit which gives them nothing in return for their investment of time...not even real enjoyment.

And as they get depressed they try to use those things as a palliative and it doesn't work. I have one friend who plays Counterstrike like a fiend but it seems like he just tries to escape his problems.

I couldn't tell you if it's a needs thing because don't people whose needs are entirely met feel numbed and cut off from the world? Maybe it's all about finding pleasure in engaging the world. But the question remains, how do you get from the trough to the peak again? Can you remain there or at least mitigate the effects of the trough? I wonder...

Kauaigirl...well, I can't say for certain that the happiness comes from within or without but I know what you mean about "real problems." It's not that I say "Geez, in comparison to some 8-year-old in Angola my problems aren't so bad." Is it my past experience with real suffering? Or some kind of sympathetic pain, some kind of "Ask not for whom the bell tolls" deal?

Hm.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355

quote:

---

Originally posted by Sabine
problem of pain?

grief observed?

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Mountains
Posts: 4689

And as they get depressed they try to use those things as a palliative and it doesn't work. I have one friend who plays Counterstrike like a fiend but it seems like he just tries to escape his problems.

yup.. it's like a form of coping.. focusing on something.. eating.. fucking.. cutting.. playing video games.. drinking.. blah blah blah..
you can't handle the feeling.. so you just zone out on something else that can keep you busy.. allow you to just keep moving.. stop feeling.. function.

I couldn't tell you if it's a needs thing because don't people whose needs are entirely met feel numbed and cut off from the world?

um.. I don't really know.. I don't know if anyone actually thinks that all of their needs are really met.. and the parts that are not are what tends to give them grief in different ways and on different levels.. people are ever needing and wanting and upset about what they don't have.

But the question remains, how do you get from the trough to the peak again?

I think it's kind of one of those things you just usually have to wait out.. I remember having a talk in sunday school about this when I was 12/13ish about this strangely enough.. my teacher was saying that with people usually their ups are as high as their downs are low.. you kind of need one for the other.. deppression is just kind of when you get stuck in the low part for too long..

Can you remain there or at least mitigate the effects of the trough? I wonder...

I would never want to always be happy.. that would be just a dull plateau.. would happiness really be felt without saddness?
and I'm a big believer in people being able to control almost everything about themselves..

Kauaigirl..
gotta say I disagree.. I don't think that simply because some people are in worse circumstances than others makes their pain more worthy.. everyone's experiences are very real to themselves.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355

ah, wait. i guess i do get what other people call "depressed" in a cyclical way. i can't call it depression really because it's not really an emotion, i just feel sort of seperate sometimes. which makes sense because for better or worse i dont have much in common with most people.
it usually involves women, i guess. i guess if i met a guy who i felt some sort of "kinship" with that would be enough. a BEST BEST FRIEND. so i guess i get lonely. that's pretty weak.
i don't know how i get out of it. i only get like that when my hopes were brought up for some reason, so the realization that i probably judged hastily is sad. get over it with time. eating more of certain things probably, balancing the old chemistry.

what was my point? don't have one. when i get "depressed" nobody notices and i'm fine with that.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

Cause I found a way to steal the sun from the sky
Long live that day that I decided to fly

-shinedown

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

taste the fucking rainbow

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 17889

Self-loathing is pure self-centeredness. If you hate yourself, you're still thinking only of yourself. It's a neat way folks have of being self-centered and yet thinking themselves humble because their self-image is negative. Humility is not thinking less of myself; it is thinking of myself less.

The idea that we are really little better or worse than our fellows is particularly galling to most people. They would rather be wrong than happy, just as other people would rather be right than happy. There are people in the world who are so self-absorbed that they wouldn't make an attempt at healthy thinkin if it hare-lipped the pope.

You don't learn to love other people by loving yourself. You learn to love yourself by loving other people first. And that does not mean that you get a warm fuzzy when you think about them. It usually translates into doing something I find highly inconvenient for little or no recompense so that the work of the world may be furthered.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 17889

You can change the way you feel, and you can change the way you think. Most people don't believe that. It requires work, and it requires being willing to let go of ideas that I have grown up believing about what makes me happy and what I require to be content. It also has to do with ideas about what constitutes "success" in my life.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355

yeah, i suppose the only people who should loathe themselves are the people who do a lot of damage to other people, and even then they should probably only loathe themselves if they still do a lot of damage to other people.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mugtoe
You can change the way you feel, and you can change the way you think. Most people don't believe that. It requires work, and it requires being willing to let go of ideas that I have grown up believing about what makes me happy and what I require to be content. It also has to do with ideas about what constitutes "success" in my life.

---

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

taste the fucking rainbow

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2003
Location: the 45th Parallel
Posts: 127

I think many find also that taking such 'remedies' as anti-pressants can give a false sense of well being to be sure... from personal experience... had to try everything before giving up, you know? But they don't make you feel "Good" they make you feel nothing... feeling bad is far superior to feeling nothing... at least you are FEELING something... no?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Baba Kueria
Posts: 3146

quote:

---

Originally posted by Mugtoe
Self-loathing is pure self-centeredness. If you hate yourself, you're still thinking only of yourself. It's a neat way folks have of being self-centered and yet thinking themselves humble because their self-image is negative. Humility is not thinking less of myself; it is thinking of myself less.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

quote:

---

Originally posted by kauaigirl
But they don't make you feel "Good" they make you feel nothing... feeling bad is far superior to feeling nothing... at least you are FEELING something... no?

---

I have said something very similar on this forum.
I agree, they stole my colors...Id rather have my colors and try to find my place...the place where I am at peace, know myself and have mastered myself while holding on to my passion...and all those things that make me speshul.

My bus maybe short...but it's trippin the ghetto fantastic...

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

taste the fucking rainbow

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355

quote:

---

Originally posted by euphorbia
well said.
Its a constant struggle to be at peace with myself but I am very eager to enjoy life and to help those around me enjoy thier's.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

quote:

---

Originally posted by buddha's penis
i think you mean "THEIRS".
pff.

---

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

taste the fucking rainbow

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location: 0.50
Posts: 9355

quote:

---

Originally posted by slight
I disagree Mug.

All people are rotten. I am a person. It follows that I am rotten.

---

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

fucking hippie.

__________________

[Ignore Sig]

taste the fucking rainbow

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16671

quote:

---

Originally posted by buddha's penis


edit: and i'll ONLY suck proverbial cock. .

---