Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 13224

http://blogs.salon.com/0002762/stor...WarVictims.html

Pictures and stories of the innocent victims killed in the War On Drugs. May be it's time to rethink it all.

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Registered: Mar 2002
Location: Mountains
Posts: 4700

yep.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 15139

Just a day or two ago dad was ranting about the whole no-knock raid laws and how this sort of thing could so easily happen.

Pity there's no politicians in power who would support pulling back from the drug war.

Edit: And that's why I will be voting Libertarian.

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 16514

Good link, Billgerat. One of the victims listed there was a cousin, Shirley Dorsey. Another, Pedro Oregon Navarro, caused a veritable shit-storm of controversy here in Houston.

Researching the names listed there, I could find not one instance (no matter how egregious the police misconduct) where any officer involved in these deaths suffered any criminal consequences for these murders.

Most telling is this : "Donald P. Scott

61 years old
Malibu, California

Government agencies were interested in the property of this reclusive millionaire. A warrant was issued based on concocted "evidence" of supposed marijuana plantings, and a major raid was conducted with a 32-man assault team. Scott was shot to death in front of his wife. No drugs were found.

A later official report found: "It is the District Attorney's opinion that the Los Angeles County Sheriffs Department was motivated, at least in part, by a desire to seize and forfeit the ranch for the government. Based in part upon the possibility of forfeiture, Spencer obtained a search warrant that was not supported by probable cause. This search warrant became Donald Scott's death warrant."

Yet the DA never brought charges.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

Good links. And remember, folks, these are just the people who are shot by the police in the actual process of drug raids. Those six-year olds who die in gang crossfires are also victims of the drug war. As are honorable judges gunned down by the Colombian cartels, and even the police killed in action trying to enforce these insane, insane laws. If you hate the police, you have reason to oppose the drug war; if you're pro-police, you have even MORE reason.

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 19626

BUT THE CHILDREN! THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN! OH MY GOD!

-m

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4720

So, Chips...if we stop the war on drugs, gang bangers won't kill innocent kids in drive-bys anymore?

Sorry, I'm just being obtuse.

Simon: Exactly what is it in your moral code besides "I don't like it" that leads you to believe you can criticize even such obviously reprehensible acts?

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 19626

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
So, Chips...if we stop the war on drugs, gang bangers won't kill innocent kids in drive-bys anymore?

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
So, Chips...if we stop the war on drugs, gang bangers won't kill innocent kids in drive-bys anymore?

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 13224

There is an old saying about the law: better a hundred guilty go free than one innocent be convicted. This is a principle I heartily endorse. Our laws are supposed to be designed this way, but increasingly attitudes by law enforcement and private citizens have hardened against this. All the time I hear more and more people say that they should just take all the people in jail and just shoot them and be done with them. Well, The Innocence Project has shown the fallacy of that way of thinking. Too many innocent people have been released off of death row around the country, showing just how many may have been wrongly put to death. I do support the death penalty, but I believe it should be severely restricted and more judicically used.

If it were proved that an innocent man had been put to death, just think of how loud people would protest against such a thing happening! But why is it that when innocent people are killed in drug raids, everyone just shrugs their shoulders and ignore it? Where are the protests? And the police reactions? Why don't they revise their tactics and information processes to prevent such things from happening again? Is the lure of property confiscations so strong that they just turn their heads away and say "that's just the cost of fighting the drug scourage"? It's totally unbelievable and foreign to my way of thinking that such attitudes and beliefs should exist.

Legalizing drugs is an especially sticky widget to consider. So many pros and cons to weigh. Certainly legalization would take the profit motive out of it, so the gangs and mafia families couldn't make money off of drugs and be able to by the black market guns and ammo to fight their turf battles with. And we'd save all the billions that we spend every year in the War On Drugs that could be spent on much better things. But should we just legalize it all - heroin, coke, opium, crank, pot, etc. and then deal with the social consequences of addiction and the diseases associated with drug use? I'd like to see a reputable study from the countries that have headed down this road and see how they have fared. Maybe that might be the way to go.

Personally, I don't favor legalizing any drug but pot. Pot was an $8 billion dollar a year industry in 1982, just in the state of Washington alone. I think we should legalize it, tax it, and use those proceeds alone to fund the drug war against all the other drugs. Study after study has shown that for all the money we have spent on the drug war over the years has failed to stem the tide of drugs grown here, or entering the country from without, or even more than imperceptivly reducing the number of users/addicts. And I do think we do need to fight against drugs irreguardless, but at least we could make the pot users fund it instead of all the money comming from the rest of our pockets. Even so, we still need to rethink on how we fight drugs, just to keep innocent people from becoming victims like the link lists. I don't care if these innocents killed are 1% of 1% of the total of people killed in police raids; to me, one innocent life lost is not worth killing a hundred druggies. It just shocks me that people don't realize that what happened to them could easily happen to you or me.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4720

quote:

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If it were proved that an innocent man had been put to death, just think of how loud people would protest against such a thing happening! But why is it that when innocent people are killed in drug raids, everyone just shrugs their shoulders and ignore it? Where are the protests? And the police reactions? Why don't they revise their tactics and information processes to prevent such things from happening again? Is the lure of property confiscations so strong that they just turn their heads away and say "that's just the cost of fighting the drug scourage"? It's totally unbelievable and foreign to my way of thinking that such attitudes and beliefs should exist.

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 16514

quote:

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Originally posted by squee
Simon: Exactly what is it in your moral code besides "I don't like it" that leads you to believe you can criticize even such obviously reprehensible acts?

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Registered: Apr 2003
Location: I cant say I buy this completely,
Posts: 2541

The word 'obtuse' has been used too many times in this thread...I demand a cessation of obtusities(yes, 2 is enough!)...and none of you have fixed the fuckin drug problem yet...wtf??!

Its not like its an incredibly complex issue...we're all sure it can be fixed simply through either toughening up on laws or relaxing them entirely...because those are the only acceptable solutions...

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

So, Bill...you decry the drug raids which kill innocent people...and you think the war of which those raids are an integral and inevitable part ought to continue?

You don't want to legalize drugs because you fear the public health consequences of drug addiction. Care to show me how threatening to arrest heroin addicts encourages them to seek medical attention and engage in safe practices?

How many people do you think are prevented from becoming drug addicts by the threat of incerceration?

Either it's legitimate to throw people in prison for the substances they choose to put in their body or it isn't. I have yet to be persuaded that one single addict has been in any way aided by the threat, or in many cases the reality, of being locked down and repeatedly raped.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location: In a Blue, Blue State
Posts: 13224

So, Bill...you decry the drug raids which kill innocent people...and you think the war of which those raids are an integral and inevitable part ought to continue?

Raiding and arresting dealers and suppliers should continue if we don't want drugs on the streets. However, the rules of how we go about doing that need to be revised so that accidental deaths are prevented to the greatest possible degree. Sure, all the drugs confiscated have not lessened the availiability of drugs, but those that are confiscated are at least no longer out there.

You don't want to legalize drugs because you fear the public health consequences of drug addiction. Care to show me how threatening to arrest heroin addicts encourages them to seek medical attention and engage in safe practices?

I never said that I did not want to legalize all drugs because I fear the public health consequences of drug addiction. I only pointed out that this should be considered as a consequence of legalization.

How many people do you think are prevented from becoming drug addicts by the threat of incerceration?

Probably very damn few. And those that become addicts need treatment, not incarceration.

Either it's legitimate to throw people in prison for the substances they choose to put in their body or it isn't. I have yet to be persuaded that one single addict has been in any way aided by the threat, or in many cases the reality, of being locked down and repeatedly raped.

See my answer above.

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Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 16514

quote:

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Originally posted by billgerat
So, Bill...you decry the drug raids which kill innocent people...and you think the war of which those raids are an integral and inevitable part ought to continue?

Raiding and arresting dealers and suppliers should continue if we don't want drugs on the streets. However, the rules of how we go about doing that need to be revised so that accidental deaths are prevented to the greatest possible degree. Sure, all the drugs confiscated have not lessened the availiability of drugs, but those that are confiscated are at least no longer out there.

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 19626

I have another quibble:

All the raiding and arresting don't keep drugs off the street. It cannot be done without becoming a police state.

-m

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: MI
Posts: 589

Ironically, black markets seem to thrive in police states, near as I can tell.

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 19626

I was thinking along the lines of drug dogs on every corner, all travel restricted to by permit only, daily testing of all people for drug usage, something along those lines...

-m

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Disgusting den of creepitude
Posts: 10597

Didn't they have "A war on alcohol" in the 20s' and 30's? If I recall, that one went over like a fart in church.

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Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Denver
Posts: 19626

Didn't you read the link Sabine put up? It pretty well covered that.

-m

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: China
Posts: 11795

And now we enter the war on smoking.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Disgusting den of creepitude
Posts: 10597

quote:

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Originally posted by Mordecai
Didn't you read the link Sabine put up? It pretty well covered that.

-m

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