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Nutrimentia
plata o plomo

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
Posts: 9453

Post A Serious Political Discussion

I just read a great little letter from Michael Moore urging the non-voting population to put their vote to work for Ralph Nader. I have long felt that if we could somehow mobilize the non-voting eligible voters, a big statement could be made.

One of Moore’s stressed points however, was that he does not want to take votes from Gore. I really would like to vote Nader, but goddamn I would hate to deal with Bush for 4 years. I think I am going to go for Gore now, not so much as a pro-Gore position, but rather as an anti-Bush.

I don’t live in the U.S. anymore and am really out of touch. Is there any fuel to the Nader push for the presidency? Anyone normally apathetic non-voters in here going to vote Nader this year? If Ventura can win Minnesota, why can’t we rally behind someone from out of the Washingtonian loop?

Man I would be so happy if Nader won, and I really believe it is possible. Any ideas out there? Can we get people who normally don’t vote to vote for him?

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Old Post 10-20-2000 03:39 PM
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Nutrimentia
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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
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For what its worth, here's the Michael Moore letter:

Dear friends,

DISCLAIMER: If you are planning to vote for Al Gore in November,
good for you. Don't let what I'm about to say change your mind,
because I've been told by all the experts that if you do change your
mind based on what I'm about to say, George W. Bush might win the
election and I certainly couldn't live with myself if that
connoisseur of pharmaceuticals (the kind you snort up your nose or
the kind you inject on death row) won, in part, because of a letter
I spit out over the Internet.

So let's review--you like Gore, you vote for Gore. He's a decent
guy. I met him last year at some benefit, he came up to me, big
hug--whoa, this veep is no stiff, I thought --and thanked me for
this and that. He even quoted lines from "The Awful Truth"--whoa,
scary, I thought, what's he doing watching cable channels above 40
on the box...not much to do on this veep gig, eh?

I told him I admired what he did when he came home to America as a Vietnam
Vet and spoke out against the war. That took a lot of courage, I said (his
dad lost his Senate seat for being an early opponent of the war). So, if Al
Gore is your man, go for it. In fact, I insist on it, even if you are just
throwing your vote away.

What I am about to say, though, is not intended for any Al Gore (or George
W.) voters. If you are one, please click off now.

To Whom It May Concern:

I address this letter to the largest political party in the United
States--the 55% of you in the voting public who are so disillusioned with
politics and politicians, so sick and tired of all the broken promises, so
disgusted with all the b.s. that you have absolutely no intention of voting
in November.

You know who you are.

AND YOU ARE THE MAJORITY!

You rule. You are the Non-Voters, all 100 million of you!

Until now, you have been the subject of scorn and ridicule. You've
been called apathetic, lazy, ignorant. Your actions have been viewed
as unAmerican (I mean, what kind of citizen in the World's Greatest
Democracy would not exercise his or her most important and cherished
right--the right to freely choose your leader!).

Well, may I be the first to tell you that, not only are you NOT stupid and
apathetic, I believe you are smarter than all the rest of us combined. YOU
figured it out. YOU uncovered the scam. And YOU had the guts to no longer
participate in a lie. Way to go! In 1996, you helped set the all-time
American record for lowest turnout ever at a presidential election.

The reason you, the majority, no longer vote in America is because you,
the majority, realize there is no real choice on the ballot. The "two"
parties both do the bidding of the wealthy and agree with each other on 90%
of the issues. They take 90% of their money from people who make over a
hundred-grand a year, and then enact over 90% of the laws those
contributors want passed.

On the ballot this November, you already know there is no
contest. The independent Cook Political Report in D.C. last week
announced that, out of 435 House seats up for election in November,
there are only 47 seats where there is a "true race" between
opponents--and, of those, only 14 seats have a race that is even
"close" between the two candidates. 14 out of 435!

"Ninety-seven to ninety-nine percent of incumbents running for re-election
will be returned to Congress in November," according to the Cook Report.

The Non-Voters already understand this. And they are not going to waste
one iota of their day on November 7 driving to some smelly elementary school
gymnasium to participate in a Soviet-style election with no friggin' choice
on the ballot.

So, to you brave voter-resisters, I say congratulations on your act
of civic disobedience! I joined you this primary season and refused
to go along with this charade of "choice." Nearly 80% of those of us
of voting age--over 160 million Americans--staged a sit-in on our
living room couches during this year's primaries. THAT is the great
untold story of this election year. How much longer will the
punditocracy be able to get away with dismissing this massive
no-show as "a sign Americans are content with the booming economy?"

Now that we have made our presence known (you all don't mind me
speaking for us, do you? Good. In fact, I'll just assume the
currently-vacant mantle of this majority party and serve as your
leader until you say otherwise...), it is time to find a way that
says, loudly and clearly, just how mad as hell we are and how we are
not going to take it anymore. We need to find a way where our vote
screams "None of the Above!" A chance to act, like that Chinese guy
in Tieneman Square, standing in front of a moving tank and stopping
it in its path.

In November, we should find a way to follow in the footsteps of
those intelligent Minnesotans who, even thought they could care less
about professional wrestling (and even less, I'm sure, for Jesse
"The Body"), proved to the world that they not only have a sense of
humor, but they know how to stick it to the whole bloody
system. Think of just how high their level of anger must have been
against the One-Party-With-Two-Heads monopoly! I mean, state
government is no joke--somebody's gotta build the roads, run the
schools, catch the criminals. You don't want to turn the asylum over
to the chief lunatic but, damn it, that's what the people of
Minnesota did--just to send a message! Wow. That took some guts.

So, for those of you who weren't going to vote anyway, well...what
if you actually did? What if you drove down to that stinky gym where
the little shell game behind the pretend curtains is taking place
("Pay no attention to the voters behind the curtains!"), walk in,
sign in, take the ballot they hand you, and toss yourselves inside
the booth like a political molotov cocktail.

Boom!

"You wanna tell me there's a choice here between two guys who both support
NAFTA, WTO, the death penalty, the Cuban embargo, increased Pentagon
spending, sleazy HMOs, greedy hospital chains, 250 million guns in our
homes, more bombing of Iraq, the rich getting richer and the rest of us
declaring bankruptcy?"

Boom!

Not me.

Boom!

I'm voting for Ralph Nader.

KAAAABOOM!

Friends, we are losing our democratic control over our country. We
may have already lost it. I hope not. But in the last 20 years of
the Reagan administration, Corporate America has merged and morphed
itself to such an extent that just a handful of companies now call
all the shots. They own Congress. They own us. In order to work for
them, we have to take urine tests and lie detectors and wear bar
codes on chains around our necks. In order to keep our jobs we have
had to give up decent health care, the 8-hour day (and time with our
kids), the security that we'll even have a job next year, and any
unwillingness we may have to compete with a 14-year old Indonesian
girl who gets a dollar a day.

And how frightening (and great) is it that the last place we can
freely try to inform and communicate with each other is on this very
Web? Six companies run by six men control the majority of the news
we now get from newspapers, television, radio and the Internet. One
out of every two books is bought at a bookstore owned by one of only
two companies. Is it safe in a "free society" to have the sources of
our information and mass communication in the hands of just a few
wealthy men who have a VESTED interest in keeping us as stupid as
possible--or at least in keeping us thinking like them so that we
vote for THEIR candidates?

I fear the cement on this new oligarchy of power is quickly drying,
and when it is finished hardening, we are finished. The democracy,
the one that's supposed to be of, by, and for the people, will cease
to exist.

We must not let this happen, no matter how cynical and disgusted
we've become at the whole electoral process. Ralph Nader, to me,
represents a chance for us to at least temporarily stop the cement
from drying. We need him in there kicking things up, stirring the
pot and forcing a real debate about the issues. Whether it's Ralph
as Candidate or Ralph as President, he may represent our last hope
to get our country back from the clutches of the powerful few.

I am not writing these words lightly. I am hoping to sound a siren
and rally the majority who, for good reason, have given up--but
might just have it in them to find the will for one last fight
against the bastards.

Can Ralph win? Well, stranger things have happened in the past
decade. C'mon, think about it, not a single one of us ever thought
we'd see the Berlin Wall come down or Nelson Mandela as President of
South Africa. After those two things happened, I joined a new school
of thought that said ANYTHING was possible. Jesse Ventura started
with 3% in the polls and won. Ross Perot in '92 started with 6% and,
after proving to everyone that he was certifiably insane, still got
nearly 20% of the vote.

Ralph already has between 7% and 10% in the polls--before he's done
any serious campaigning. He's gone from 3% to 8% in my home state of
Michigan. These are amazing numbers, and the pundits and lobbyists
and Republicrats are running scared. Hey, you like to watch scared
Republicrats running? Tell a pollster you're voting for Ralph.

Now, look, before you all send me a lot of mail about how weird
Ralph is 'cause he doesn't own a car or is a "sell-out" 'cause he's
got a few million dollars, let me say this: I used to work out of
his office, and Ralph is definitely one of a kind. In a future
letter I will write of those experiences but, for now, let's just
agree that Ralph is at least half as crazy as Jesse Ventura--and
about a hundred times as smart. I'd say he's also saved about a
million or so lives, thanks to the consumer and environmental
legislation he has devoted his life to.

And between Gore, Bush, and himself, he's the only person running who
would guarantee universal health care for all, the only candidate who would
raise the minimum wage to a decent level, the only one who would get up each
morning asking himself the question, "What can I do today to serve all the
people of this country?"

The list goes on and on. You can read more about what Ralph stands for by
going to his website (http://www.votenader.org). You'll agree, I'm sure,
there's lots of common sense there, regardless of what political stripe you
are.

But remember. If you are even THINKING of voting for Al Gore, vote for Al
Gore. Ralph Nader does not need a single Gore vote. There are a hundred
million of us out there who are uncommitted and currently not voting. Right
now, Gore and Bush are each hoping to win by getting only 40 million votes.

If you are in the Non-Voting majority and want to let 'em all have
it, if you want to get our country back in our hands...well, if even
half of you show up and vote November 7 then you won't be held
responsible for Bush winning the White House.

In fact, you won't be held responsible for putting Gore in the White
House, either. Rather, you will have made history by putting a true American
hero at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue.

And you will have given every company, every boss who's done ya wrong, the
worst nightmare of their lives.

November 7. Payback Time.

The revenge of the Non-Voters!

So sayeth their unappointed leader,
yours truly,
Michael Moore
mmflint@aol.com http://www.theawfultruth.com http://www.michaelmoore.com

PS. Come to think of it, Democrats should be on their knees thanking
Ralph for running. Rather than taking votes from Gore, Ralph's going
to be the one responsible for turning the House back over to the
Democrats.

When millions of these Non-Voters enter that booth to vote for
Ralph, and they come across their local race for Congress, they will
find no Green Party candidate in most of the 435 Congressional
districts. So who do you think Ralph's army of Non-Voters will plunk
down for Congress? The Republican? I don't think so.

The Democrats are only six seats short of regaining control of the
House. Ralph Nader will be the reason the Democrats get the House
back for the first time since Newt's Contract on America in 1994.

Democrats should send their checks to:
Nader 2000, P.O. Box 18002,
Washington, DC 20035.

(Or, better yet, let's try to elect enough Greens to Congress--a
dozen or so--and they'll hold the deciding votes because neither the
Democrats nor the Republicans will have the majority. It'll be a
friggin' Knesset!)

PPS. If you're still worried this letter might convince a weak-kneed
Gore voter to flip over to Nader--and thus lead to President George
W. stacking the Supreme Court to make abortion illegal, well, it's
all a bunch of hooey. Please read my latest grassroots.com column
entitled, "I Ain't Fallin for That One Again" at: http://www.michaelmoore.com/aint.html

PLEASE PASS THIS LETTER ON TO
YOUR FRIENDS AND FAMILY.
PERMISSION IS GRANTED TO
REPRINT ANYWHERE.

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Old Post 10-20-2000 03:41 PM
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Spooky
twisty turny thing

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 7236

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tactical voting!!! I love it. But then that is because I support a Party that is marginalised in many UK constituencies.

I don't really know about the US situation though sorry all this electroal college stuff seems wholly unnecessary and confusing.but hey, each to there own.

But tactical voting is fun

------------------
sp00ky
---------------------------
'Hell is other people' - Satre
'God is Dead' - Nietzsche
'mans life is nasty, brutish, and short' - Hobbes

I quote, therefore I am - Spooky

[This message has been edited by Spooky (edited 10-20-2000).]

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Old Post 10-20-2000 03:44 PM
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Spaceboy
Oblivious poster.

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: NJ
Posts: 2300

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Nader can't possibly win, although he is getting lots of support. they'll get more campaign money and publicity, but thats about it.
i'm actually voting against Gore, and casting my ballot for Bush.

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Old Post 10-20-2000 03:51 PM
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CowboyX
Adorable Pussycat

Registered: Oct 2000
Location:
Posts: 17

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Ima fuckup, and I appologise
WOOPEEE!!

[This message has been edited by CowboyX (edited 10-20-2000).]

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Old Post 10-20-2000 07:47 PM
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Feral Automaton
ferret kid!

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2076

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Nader gets my vote. Thank you Nutrimentia.

Fuck the hegemony.

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Old Post 10-20-2000 09:06 PM
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Spooky
twisty turny thing

Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by Feral Automaton:
Fuck the hegemony.


hegemony is a cool fucking word

------------------
sp00ky
---------------------------
'Hell is other people' - Satre
'God is Dead' - Nietzsche
'mans life is nasty, brutish, and short' - Hobbes

I quote, therefore I am - Spooky

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Old Post 10-20-2000 10:06 PM
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Nutrimentia
plata o plomo

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
Posts: 9453

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quote:
Originally posted by Spaceboy:
Nader can't possibly win, although he is getting lots of support. they'll get more campaign money and publicity, but thats about it.
i'm actually voting against Gore, and casting my ballot for Bush.




Can I inquire as to why you vote this way, if you are serious about it? Gore is no angel, but Bush is an anachronism.v

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Old Post 10-21-2000 12:45 AM
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Paint CHiPs
Viva Le Me

Registered: Jul 2000
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For some reason that letter kinda leaves a bad taste in my mouth.

I dunno, it just seems deceptive. A celebrity urging people to just vote for Nader "because it will hurt the system". Granted, I am sure there are reasons behind it, but the way it stands, it almost sounds half sarcastic to me. All that stuff about congratulations for not voting and whatnot. Sounds half tounge-in-cheek, half sleazy.

And why, oh why, does Harry Browne always fall to the wayside?

GET HIM IN A DEBATE!

In any case, you can apply this whole idea to voting for Harry Browne as well.

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Old Post 10-21-2000 08:09 PM
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aminal
incomplete

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Erehwon
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personally i wouldn't vote for any of them, anyone willing to run for president doesn't deserve the job.

I am one of those people who 'wastes' his vote by not voting... a non-vote is a vote against all candidates... just remember that. Most nations fought for years to get everyone the vote, its your consitutional right not to exercise it if you dont want to...

------------------
a /\/\ i n a l

"My God, I haven't been fucked like that since grade school!" - Fight Club

"The only thing the Spice Girls ever did for 'Girl Power' was persuade 8 year old girls to dress like 50 year old hookers"

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Old Post 10-21-2000 08:41 PM
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Fiend
batshit crazy

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Bangor, ME
Posts: 10153

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I would like to do away with the electoral voting altogether. the reasoning behind the electoral vote is that whoever wins the popular vote, gets all the electoral votes in that state.
that means if bush wins by 51% and gore has 49% say in california bush gets all 20 or however many electoral votes for the state, no matter how close the outcome is
states like maine, we only have three electoral votes. the losing candidate if close enough gets one of the three electoral votes

i say we do away with them all and just go by a head count, much easier and we don't have any fuss

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Old Post 10-21-2000 08:50 PM
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aminal
incomplete

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Erehwon
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Af - you mean "proportional representation" gasp - what a daft concept... doesn't work...

*smile*

this is a joke btw - i know nothign about politics... hence why i dont bother voting?

------------------
a /\/\ i n a l

"My God, I haven't been fucked like that since grade school!" - Fight Club

"The only thing the Spice Girls ever did for 'Girl Power' was persuade 8 year old girls to dress like 50 year old hookers"

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Old Post 10-21-2000 08:54 PM
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Agoust
I'll have the veal.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
Posts: 1485

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quote:
Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend:
I would like to do away with the electoral voting altogether. the reasoning behind the electoral vote is that whoever wins the popular vote, gets all the electoral votes in that state.
that means if bush wins by 51% and gore has 49% say in california bush gets all 20 or however many electoral votes for the state, no matter how close the outcome is
states like maine, we only have three electoral votes. the losing candidate if close enough gets one of the three electoral votes

i say we do away with them all and just go by a head count, much easier and we don't have any fuss



Fiend--your wrong on a couple things here bud. First, Maine has 4 electoral votes; California has 54.

More importantly, while theoretically, an electoral college representative *could* split his vote--this virtually *NEVER* happens. A candidate that wins the popular vote in a particular state will win *ALL* that state's electoral votes, regardless of how close the vote was.

I believe there are one or two glaring examples, both from landslide elections, where a representative voted against the popular vote of his/her state. These were "statement" votes, attempting to point-out how hackneyed the electoral college truly is.

[This message has been edited by Agoust (edited 10-21-2000).]

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Old Post 10-21-2000 09:14 PM
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Fiend
batshit crazy

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sorry Agoust i was using generalizations, i don't normally do my homework before i post
and maine does have a split electoral vote, after i eat i will do some homework for you.
college is a beautiful thing

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Old Post 10-21-2000 09:23 PM
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Agoust
I'll have the veal.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
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[Damn keyboard--triple post!]

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Old Post 10-21-2000 09:51 PM
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Agoust
I'll have the veal.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
Posts: 1485

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quote:
Originally posted by AlcoholSoopaFiend:
sorry Agoust i was using generalizations, i don't normally do my homework before i post
and maine does have a split electoral vote, after i eat i will do some homework for you.
college is a beautiful thing



Fiend--Maine's constitution might state that it has the ability to split its electoral vote, but my sense is that this has almost never happened. Look for past elections--I'm reasonably certain that you'll find Maine's few electoral votes have always gone to the same candidate.

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Old Post 10-21-2000 09:55 PM
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flocat
PINKO

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: LfuckinA
Posts: 3350

Arrow

I posted this letter quite some time ago. All that happened was that it fell to the third page in a matter of a few hours. I'm glad to see its resurgence here. I'm not voting for Bush, not voting for Gore. I am voting for Nader. Why? Because he has made the most sense so far. Paint, you say that the letter sounds tongue-in-cheek? Well, look at who wrote it. Moore is always tongue-in-cheek, gotta love it. Why won't they let Nader and even Browne into a debate? Why? Because that would show the public that there is a choice out there. Instead, they have these debates which turn out to be love fests between the candidates. Never have I seen a closer resembelance in the two candidates than AFTER the debates which were supposedly going to show that they were actually different. Different my ass. We appeared to be fucked in this country. It appears as if the trend of voting for the lesser of two evils is finally catching up to us and biting us in the ass. Are you going to effect a change? Are you going to make a statement about the way this country is run? Are you going to stand up for what is right and stop voting for the lesser of two evils? By making that vote for the better, more-qualified person rather than the lesser of two evils, you can effect that change. If you and I and the rest of the 55% make the right vote, we will make a change. But only then can we say we did the right thing.

"Are you believing the lies? / Are you standing in line? / You're bowing down to the flag / You got a bullet in the head."

------------------
Wherever you see someone struggling to be free, you'll see me.

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Old Post 10-21-2000 10:21 PM
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Agoust
I'll have the veal.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
Posts: 1485

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Speaking of electoral colleges, the most recent CBS maps show Gore with a slight lead over Bush--208-205. You need 270 electoral votes to win.

Bush has significantly more states voting his way, along with a bit more of the population too.

The few remaining states will in all likelihood decide the election, barring any last minute surprises. Those states include:

* Florida: Bush's brother Jeb is governor
*Wisconsin: very popular Republican governor
*Michigan: with its strong labor unions, how doesn't Gore have this one sewn up?
*Iowa: usually votes Democratic
*Missouri: Mel Carnahan, a popular Democratic governor was killed in a plane crash last week; he had been stumping for Gore--a close friend, while simultaneously running for Senate
*Washington: strong Nader vote will inevitably hurt Gore
*Oregon: again, a very strong Nader vote
*New Hampshire: recalcitrant New Englanders that refuse to vote Democratic like the rest of the region
*West Virginia: typically votes Democratic, but lots of coal miners find Bush's message appealing
*Arkansas: Clinton's home state, but very popular conservative governor
*New Mexico: neighboring state to Texas; strong environmental movement; big Hispanic vote
*Nevada: strong environmental movement
*Tennessee: Gore's home state; prominent Republican senators

My sense is that whoever wins Florida will win this election. Were I a betting man, I'd go with Bush.

Grrrrrrr.....

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Old Post 10-21-2000 10:22 PM
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Paint CHiPs
Viva Le Me

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
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quote:
Originally posted by Agoust:
[Damn keyboard--triple post!]


What are you talking about dude? I only see one!

You must be crazy or something.

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Old Post 10-21-2000 10:35 PM
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Paint CHiPs
Viva Le Me

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
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flocat, yeah, I fully realize who it is from, and have two of Moore's books and all his movies (Roger & Me is in my top ten of all time).

I guess I meant tounge-in-cheek in a more condescending way then I am used to from him. Normally, he is funny because the reader/viewer is in on the joke but the subject of the joke is not. In this case, the reader/viewers seem to BE the subject of the joke, and he is talking as if they are not in on it and using that to push a political agenda (i.e. you don't care anyway, so just vote for Nader, ya morons, It'd be cool and piss of establishmentarians!)

It seems to be talking down to the reader, was all I meant.

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Old Post 10-21-2000 10:40 PM
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Agoust
I'll have the veal.

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Ivory Tower, USA
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quote:
Originally posted by Paint CHiPs:
What are you talking about dude? I only see one!

You must be crazy or something.




Tell me you cleaned that mess up!

How many acid trips before one is certifiably insane? I *think* it was there a while ago!

Or am I having another one of those bothersome flashbacks?

*begins waving hand in front of face to make sure he isn't seeing trails*

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