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snarkychick
strappy shoes

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: kansas.
Posts: 346

Gay and Fired in America

quote:
Last month the White House removed information from government Web sites about sexual orientation discrimination in the workplace. That's because federal employees can now be fired for being homosexual. On Feb. 23 Washington Post columnist Steven Barr reported that references to sexual orientation discrimination were removed from Federal employment complaint forms posted on agency Web sites. At the time, President Bush's new appointee to head the Office of Special Counsel, Scott Bloch, said the policy was under review.

Last week, Bloch issued his brief on the matter. According to Bloch, federal employees will now "have no recourse if they are fired or demoted simply for being gay".


The rest of the article.


I'm so tired of Bush. I'm tired of his politics. I'm tired of his supporters. I'm tired about reading more civil rights violations being proposed, developed, or implemented. I'm tired of having to defend my patriotism because I'm tired of him. I'm tired of wondering how in the hell half the American public can endorse a man who allows such decisions to be make from his staff. I'm tired of his name. I'm tired of his rhetoric.


I'm tired.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 03:18 PM
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Hawley Griffin
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Registered: Feb 2004
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dont like it? then move

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Old Post 04-06-2004 03:42 PM
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MstrG
The Talamasca

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10150

I'm sure there's more to this story, notwithstanding an editorial from one of the most liberal schools in the country. The truth is: even with the 1980 law, firing someone for any reason you like is still the law in 30+ states (it's called "at will" employment), as long as you don't make the real reason known. I'm sure it's been levied against people across the spectrum, and for reasons extending far beyond politics (like religion.)

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:02 PM
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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

It is of course particularly contemptible and stupid for the federal government to engage in firings strictly on the grounds of sexual orientation. That having been said, I don't know whether I feel that a legal entitlement to protection based on sexual orientation is justified.

Tell ya what, we'll see if some sort of purge ensues. If it does, I'll back snarky on this.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:11 PM
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MstrG
The Talamasca

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10150

I agree, and would likely do the same. But while snarky tires of Bush et al, I tire of the continual fear-mongering. How much hand-wringing has there been about the Patriot Act with an amazingly empty record of violations being reported, and you know the media would be all over that.

If in fact this story is true, and this person (without taking it to the White House) intends on acting on it, it will take little to reign him in and see him sitting on the curb with a cup.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:33 PM
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zim
-

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 3063

"Old news, Bush already fixed it"

quote:
Bush differs with appointee on gay policy
The controversy over whether the Office of Special Counsel (OSC) would protect gay and lesbian federal employees from discrimination reached a new level Thursday after the White House promised to maintain protections established during the Clinton administration.

"Long-standing federal policy prohibits discrimination against federal employees based on sexual orientation," White House spokesman Ken Lisaius told the San Francisco Chronicle. "President Bush expects federal agencies to enforce this policy and to ensure that all federal employees are protected from unfair discrimination at work."

In February, the head of the OSC, Scott Bloch, removed language from the agency's literature and Web site, which said gay and lesbian employees could not be discriminated against on the basis of their sexual orientation. Despite protests from GLBT groups, Bloch justified deleting the language, claiming it "created a protected class based on orientation, which is not currently part of the civil rights law."

Democrats objected to Bloch's position in a press conference Wednesday, noting the protections for gays and lesbians came from an executive order issued by President Clinton in 1998.

"I am pleased the White House has rebuked Mr. Bloch's policies. This is a step in the right direction," Rep. Eliot Engel, D-N.Y., told the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network via e-mail on Friday.

Engel, who was one of five Democratic Congress members to hold Wednesday's conference, said more needed to be done.

"Mr. Bloch is still employed at the OSC and in a position to subvert the rights of federal employees," he said. "The White House should do what employers do when an employee openly flouts the laws they were hired to uphold: fire him."

Despite the assurances from the president, an inspection of the OSC's Web site showed at press time the agency had yet to restore any of the deleted language protecting gay and lesbian employees. In fact, Cathy Deeds, a spokeswoman for the OSC, told the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network there had been no change in Bloch's stated position.

Leonard Hirsch, president of Federal Gay Lesbian or Bisexual Transgender Employees (Federal GLOBE), told the Gay.com/PlanetOut.com Network he and other GLBT employees "hope Bloch will change his position based on further analysis."

But Hirsch believes more pressure is needed. "The devil is in the details," he said.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:35 PM
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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24745

There will be no "purge", but a quiet backlash as the silent majority pushes back against the recent noisy and careless onslaught by the Gay Rights crowd. No one will say why they are doing it; they will simply do it below the PC radar. The pendulum swings. The harder it is pushed in one direction, the harder it swings the other way. One day the center will be found, but not until people stop pushing so hard. Gays and anyone else with an agenda would do well to take note of this dynamic and remember that going slow can often get one there faster.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:37 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

quote:
Originally posted by MstrG
. How much hand-wringing has there been about the Patriot Act with an amazingly empty record of violations being reported, and you know the media would be all over that.



A lot of the informed disquiet with the 'PATRIOT act' was that it would have the potential for abuse, I think, rather than that Bush himself would be abusing it; there might always be a compelling reason to keep it (despite planned expiration dates), and at some stage there might be an administration prone to abuse it, in addition to the precedent that it sets.

Part and parcel of the general concerns is the whole idea of the 'War on Terror', I think, which is a genuine war according to the law (it seems) and it might well be argued that those powers (which aren't related to the 'PATRIOT act' but are based on concerns abotu civil liberties) are already being abused in the case of Jose Padilla.

People who were claiming that the US was going to turn into a large prison camp overnight were being pretty hysterical, but there is plenty of hysteria all over right now (and perhaps there always was). They weren't right, but then, most people didn't think that they were at the time.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:45 PM
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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

There's that "silent majority" again. Nixon lives!

What form do you expect this backlash to take, exactly? If it takes the form of random firings of people based on their sexual orientation, I do believe that I'll oppose it, and I don't believe I'll be able to find it in my heart to blame gay activists for the "backlash" any more than I blame Israelis for the terrorist acts against that state. Actions are right or wrong in themselves, and "he started it" is always a bad reason for a wrong action.

Out of curiousity, TT, when you look back on the civil rights movement of the 1960s--sit-ins, the 64 act, voter drives, and other provocative "pushing" actions--do you see the movement as having been productive, or counter-productive? I'm not asking in an adversarial manner; your posts have been well-reasoned and I'm curious as to whether you would extend your outlook on the gay rights crowd to their historical antecedents.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:47 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

quote:
Originally posted by Trenchant_Troll
The harder it is pushed in one direction, the harder it swings the other way. One day the center will be found, but not until people stop pushing so hard. Gays and anyone else with an agenda would do well to take note of this dynamic and remember that going slow can often get one there faster.


They might just argue that it is worth it to get the pendulum swinging. The black civil rights people, for example, had been waiting a long time for things to get moving in some of the Southern states before they kicked it into action.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:48 PM
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CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

No apologies regarding my opposition to the Patriot Act. Liberty dies by stages, and each individual violation (such as the Padilla matter) is the most important thing in the world to the person affected. There was, and is, every reason for concern.

Last edited by CHiPsJr on 04-06-2004 at 04:58 PM

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:52 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
No apologies on the Patriot Act. Liberty dies by stages, and each individual violation (such as the Padilla matter) is the most important thing in the world to the person affected. There was, and is, every reason for concern.


Yes. It doesn't have to be a catastrophic loss of liberty to be, in retrospect, an important part in a string of losses of liberty that are eventually arrived at. Which isn't to say that it will be that, but that it is probably a more likely scenario for an eventually significant loss of liberty than it all happening at once.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:55 PM
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MstrG
The Talamasca

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10150

Unless I misread, Smug was pointing out that Padilla's situation is not part of Patriot.

edit: typing

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Old Post 04-06-2004 04:55 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
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Posts: 35656

quote:
Originally posted by MstrG
Unless I misread, Smug was pointing out that Padilla's situation in not part of Patriot.


I was. I was using Padilla as an example of other concerns about the Bush administration with respect to civil rights and to illustrate what I think were defensible concerns about civil rights. And if things do go bad, in terms of civil rights, I imagine that it would look in retrospect more like 'the death of a thousand cuts' than a beheading.

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zim
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http://www.aclu.org/SafeandFree/Saf...?ID=12263&c=206

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Old Post 04-06-2004 05:08 PM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
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Re: Gay and Fired in America

quote:
Originally posted by snarkychick
The rest of the article.


I'm so tired of Bush. I'm tired of his politics. I'm tired of his supporters. I'm tired about reading more civil rights violations being proposed, developed, or implemented. I'm tired of having to defend my patriotism because I'm tired of him. I'm tired of wondering how in the hell half the American public can endorse a man who allows such decisions to be make from his staff. I'm tired of his name. I'm tired of his rhetoric.


I'm tired.



and Im tired of whiners who dont know what the fuck they are talking about.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 07:47 PM
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lady sianna
nefarious nymph

Registered: Aug 2001
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and i'm tired of those who tirelessly berate others that don't agree with them.

and yes, i'm having a bad day, so what?


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Old Post 04-06-2004 08:14 PM
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Azrael
The Advocate

Registered: Dec 2002
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4b = pro bush we get it.

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Old Post 04-06-2004 08:26 PM
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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24745

quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
There's that "silent majority" again. Nixon lives! etc...etc....etc...



The civil rights movement was a 'perfect storm' that had been brewing for a very long time and that involved a large minority and a broad range of supporters. Even then there was backlash amid the progress and I need not educate you on that.

The gay movement in this country loves to wistfully compare its cause to the cause of that crucial period in time. However, there are a large number of blacks that take a great deal of offence at that notion. Like it or not, the inherency of homosexuality remains a subject of dispute, despite those that would pretend that it is not. The inherency of the pigmentation of one's skin, on the other hand, is without dispute,even among the bigotted. Likewise, the percentage of gays in this country is miniscule in comparison with that of the racial minorities they wish to identify with. Regardless of this argument, real change can only be arrived at by concensus. Yes, it often takes a spark to ignite the fire of concensus, but nevertheless, the tinder must be dry.

The civil rights movement was an eruption of conscience that had been left out to dry too long and so it lit with great violence, but remains burning to this day despite the damp wood that remains. Like it or not, there exists no such critical mass of public conscience related to the issue of homosexuality. Lacking that and driven by the desire to make a fire of damp wood, the gay community has attempted to use a flamethrower. Instead of working diligently toward the concept and acceptance of civil unions, in their haste to be accepted, they grabbed for the brass ring of marriage; an institution based in religion in a very religious nation.

While I personally do not understand or support the gay lifestyle, there are many lifestyles I don't understand or support. Therefore, I am not necessarily opposed to the concept of gay civil unions. I frankly think that all state recognized 'marriages' should be defined as civil unions and leave the choice of religious marriage to the discretion of the religious individual(s). Having said that, we must all consider this issue very carefully. Not because of the matter of homosexuals having legally recognized unions, but because in doing so a Rubicon is crossed. If individuals of the same sex are permited to join in civil union, marriage or no marriage, what is to keep a father from joining with a son, mother with daughter, or same sex siblings from following suit? There could be no 'genetic' argument against it since no children could not be produced by such unions. How many would support such unions? And, moreover, who could argue against them if gay unions are accepted as law? Once across this Rubicon we will all be strangers in a strange new land awaiting the next seismic shift in societal norms; one perhaps none of us can anticipate now, but may regret later.

Therefore, I say slow down, people, and think very, very carefully what you are willing to accept and what you are not, and craft your roadmap for the future with equally careful consideration.

TT

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Old Post 04-06-2004 08:38 PM
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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
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What is the percentage of gays for their percentage to be miniscule in comparison with the minority that they wish to identify themselves with (ie, the blacks). Blacks were about, what, 15-20% of the population back in the 1960s? So, to be miniscule in comparison, the percentage of America that is gay would have to be 1 or 2%, or less? Is that about the percentage of the US population that is gay?

As regards inherency, even if it were not inherent and in fact a matter of choice, why should it be a problem (and I don't think that the matter is particularly evenly balanced, as far as that debate goes, to be honest)? Clearly, identification with black people wouldn't then make sense, but I haven't ever been convinced that homosekshuals pose a threat to society whether or not their behaviour is one of choice. I'm all for caution when there is talk of changing things, but I don't really see any powerful arguments against equality on grounds of sexual preference in general. As long as they keep queers away from kids, of course. God knows they'll try to put into their heads (and their arses). As long as they keep queers away from kids, of course. God knows they'll try to put into the kid's heads (and their arses).

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Old Post 04-06-2004 08:49 PM
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Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24745

quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
...the percentage of America that is gay would have to be 1 or 2%, or less? Is that about the percentage of the US population that is gay?


Not far off. 2%-4%. Of course gays will argue this. At any rate, that is still millions, despite being a tiny minority.

It is not the numbers game that affords one rights, but the ramifications of affording rights to indivuals and groups must not be ignored in the process.

I think haste makes waste when righting law. That's all.


TT

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Old Post 04-06-2004 09:15 PM
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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
Posts: 16728

quote:
Originally posted by lady sianna
and i'm tired of those who tirelessly berate others that don't agree with them.






quote:
Originally posted by euphorbia
and Im tired of whiners who dont know what the fuck they are talking about.


I should have said "and I’m tired of whiners who don’t know what the fuck they are talking about and people who are deliberately dishonest or make untrue statements via ignorance"...which would apply to both of you in one