Registered: Jul 2000
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18 confirmed dead, nearly 48 in as many hours, the Sunni-led resistance forces publicly declared their support for Sadr this afternoon (which seems bizarre, he's Shiite isn't he?), 4 cities under assault.

I'm not making a point, I'm asking a question. Anybody have any good summary for what's going on over there right now?

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Registered: Apr 2003
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Its a war.

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Registered: Feb 2004
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They hate freedom.

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Registered: Aug 2001
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Saw a report that the US had destroyed four houses in Fallujah, killing 26 Iraqis including women and children. If that is true, I can't see how that achieves much but to strengthen active resistance to their forces; I mean, if my wife or kid were killed like that, I'd pick up a gun. Who wouldn't? Given the closeness of family ties in the arab world, if you kill just one innocent bystander you could be making a whole lot rebels.

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Registered: Mar 2004
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Have another spoonful, SG. Eat up like a good boy.

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You don't agree that it would become more difficult to pacify a population who feel that innocents are being killed? I mean, it doesn't seem as if the majority have a great deal in common with Sadr's crowd, the Ba'athists or the Islamic fundamentalists and that their best hope is that somehow the more general population should become involved in resisting our occupation and (soon) the rule of whatever government we set up there. It seems to me that deaths of people perceived to be innocent bystanders might help drive that (as it did in Northern Ireland and arguably has in Palestine; it could also be said to have driven US sentiment for war agaisnt Iraq, although given no link between Saddam and 11/9, it might be a more general feeling than anything specific).

I should say again that I supported the invasion and still do (although I think that Blair and Bush are looking more like incompetant shysters month on month), and, in particular, that I hope that this post-war business goes well.

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Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:

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Originally posted by Paint CHiPs


I'm not making a point, I'm asking a question. Anybody have any good summary for what's going on over there right now?

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Registered: Aug 2001
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I think that he gets a trial before we say that he killed the other cleric. Although I am not sure how we convince Iraqis that he is getting a fair trial. Fortunately, at the moment, the large majority of Shia follow Ali Sistani, and he is a hell of a lot more moderate.

My point about the kids getting killed was one of practical effect, not of a moralistic nature. My concern is that it might further strengthen resistance against us, that it will be hard for us to sell your argument which is something like (paraphrased): 'we're killing these children to stop your countrymen killing more children in the future'. It clearly isn't without merit as an argument, but can we sell it? If we can't, we look like arrogant childkillers. And nobody likes an arrogant childkiller.

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Registered: Apr 2001
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quote:

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Originally posted by Smug Git
[B]I think that he gets a trial before we say that he killed the other cleric.

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Registered: Aug 2001
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Sadr apparently has support from 15% of shias (2.5 million people). His father has become a symbol of resistance to the oppression of Saddam

Do we save Iraq from all these citizens too?

Al Sistani has called for peaceful resistance to US occupation. We are not regarded as saints by the moral majority either.

We could just say "fuck them all" and start shooting untill there are only friendly people left... but that would amount to genocide on our behalf, I'm afraid.

I am not suggesting that we withdraw... but I do think that treating all dissidents as terrorists is going to make the situation worse, not better.

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the sooner the Iraqis are policing themselves, the better. Acting as a foreign power in that capacity is an exercise in futility beyond a certain point.

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But as I said, in Basra, a fair number of the Iraqi police joined the demonstration, apparently. If we leave behind a situation that is shitty, especially after all our high-faluting rhetoric, then that is on our heads.

Whether or not we put a bullet into his head is a difficult issue; it could make things better, sure, but it could also make them worse. In any event, if he wants to fight it out, it might be out of our hands (and I don't know of any information that suggests that he is not afraid of death. His supporters haven't been using suicide bombings, either, but rather pursuing a more conventional armed resistance).

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Registered: Jun 2002
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You need to leave behind a strong state. If you leave Iraq without the power or ability to guarantee its own internal security and state structure/infrastructure, then it will become a failed state, one open to the sorts of influences that people in washington and London have been trying to destroy. Effectively, you leave yourself open to the possibility of undesirable elements gaining control of the country and all the issues that go with that.

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Registered: Sep 2001
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Seems like a mosque just got hit with a missle.

Yahoo!

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I had heard that militants were firing from the mosque. Naughty if it was a missed target, but I don't think that there are many journalists in Fallujah right now and the roads in have been closed and I guess that the military won't want to say anything until the dust has settled.

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Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:

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posted by Smug:

If we leave behind a situation that is shitty, especially after all our high-faluting rhetoric, then that is on our heads.

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On the mosque, heard a report from a French news agency reporter who said that US marines had been fired upon from inside the Mosque for an hour and a half before calling in a laser-guided bomb that was dropped from a jet. So, they don't sound much like worshippers. He also said that bit by bit, US troops had been securing Fallujah, although there are still some attacks launched from inside those areas.

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Registered: Sep 2001
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quote:

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Originally posted by Smug Git
US marines had been fired upon from inside the Mosque for an hour and a half before calling in a laser-guided bomb that was dropped from a jet. So, they don't sound much like worshippers.

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Registered: Nov 2003
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U.S. Bombs Sunni Mosque; 40 Said Killed




By BASSEM MROUE and ABDUL-QADER SAADI, Associated Press Writers

FALLUJAH, Iraq - U.S. Marines in the third day of a battle to pacify this Sunni Muslim city fired a rocket and dropped a 500-pound, laser-guided bomb on a mosque compound Wednesday, and witnesses said as many as 40 people were killed. Shiite-inspired violence spread to key cities in Iraq (news - web sites).

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...e_mi_ea/iraq_16

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Registered: Jul 2000
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Quote from John Marshall.

quote:

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At the critical moment the president has the toxic mix of the bulldog will of a Winston Churchill and the strategic insights and imagination of a Neville Chamberlain.

He has no plan. And will without policy just equals death.

The gap between the reality in Iraq and the White House's Potemkin village version of it is closing rapidly, like an upper and lower jaw about to shut tight. And the White House's penchant for denial is being squeezed between the two.

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Registered: Aug 2001
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I think that picking those two figures for comparing Bush with is stupid.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
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Neville Chambelain seems to have quite the reputation in the US.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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Yeah, I understand Eleanor Roosevelt fucked him. After that 'Janet Reno' of an experience he went back to England and was willing to get fucked by anyone with tall leather boots and a mustache.

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