Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35669

Just saw this on BBC news. Al Jazeira showed the hostages, with the hostage takers showing the hostages' passports. They say that there are only two options; Japan withdraws or the hostages are burnt alive.

Let's hope that we can get them out before the deadline.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: kansas.
Posts: 346

That is absolutely disgusting and horrifying - they were just talking about it here. Two journalists, and a human services person.



I can't imagine.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

Yeah, poor show.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35669

Were they in one of these two towns that the coalition has lost control of?

Also, if these are journalists, I don't see how this helps the Iraqi resistance's cause at all. They must realise that journalistic presence works to limit what the coalition can do, as well as creating domestic pressure on coalition member governments. A Times journalist was kidnapped by bandits recently, then taken from them by organised resistance forces and then let go when it was clear what he was (he would have been killed had he been a soldier).

Last edited by Smug Git on 04-08-2004 at 02:11 PM

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24795

How will they know which are the hostages and which are the captors? I mean they all look exactly...oh never mind. They'll probably wait and see which ones are on fire.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

Japanese look like Arabs?

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24795

They do through a night scope. Trust me.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
Posts: 9455

One of them is an 18 year old NGO worker. This is a pretty big deal over here already, and it just hit the newswire. My wife thinks that Japan should get out, although recognizes what that means. She just can't say to the families of the people that they have to die.

Japan going to Iraq was incredibly contentious. It was poorly sold by the government (sold as "we need to help America" instead of "we need to help Iraq") and then the Prime Minister got backed into saying that the Japanese were only going to go to the "non-dangerous" areas but couldn't answer as to where those areas were or how they could be found and determined, etc. There has been lots of footage of Japanese soldiers working on getting power back on, fixing up schools, etc., but this is going to rouse public sentiment in opposition in a major way.

I am not predicting anything, but I wouldn't be surprised if Koizumi's refusal to bring them back gets used as an opportunity by opposition leaders to call for a vote and the government gets dumped. I don't understand how Japanese government works enough to know how possible this is, but if public sentiment is strong enough, I know (fairly certain) that a vote can be called fairly quickly. I guess it will depend on if we can save them before they die (Bremer and the US military would do good to get in there and save them if they can) and how well the government deals with their deaths if that happens.

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Registered: Aug 2000
Location:
Posts: 4875

Well, that sucks

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
Posts: 5027

yeah... downer.

I wonder if targetting journalists would'nt help promote the perspective that Iraq is out of control? Smug's point about journalists is well taken though.

Cheers

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24795

The problem here is trying to win a war in a PC fashion. It is an unfortunate fact of war that they are not won by destroying buildings/strategic targets, but by killing more people on the other side than they kill on your side. The victor and the vanquished. The failure to recognize this law of war is what has left the Israeli and 'palestinian' conflict festering for so long. The best that can be achieved in the absences of the victor/vanquished model is a pause in aggressions. This war will be no different in the end. The murders of Islam understand this already. When we remember this sad dynamic of war ourselves the tide will change swiftly. We just haven't yet felt enough pain and loss to shake ourselves out of the PC stupor that has us hamstrung in this fight.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35669

The problem with winning this war in a brutal fashion is that our touchy-feely pre-war rhetoric hamstrings us and also public opinion wouldn't allow it, assuming that orders that would have to be given wouldn't actually be illegal (at least for the UK).

Fact is, we went in knowing what we were doing. We have to fight it in accordance with our rhetoric and our principles. If we can't win it that way, firstly we shouldn't have gone in at all and secondly we will have to grin and bear it, I think. If we can't win this in the way that we want to, then we have fucked things right up; let's hope that our leaders are right and we can win it in a manner acceptable to our collected peoples.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35669

It is also germane to point out that the resistance that we are facing is factionalised. Some of them aren't religious in nature, some are, many of them don't like each other, even, and they are a minority of the population. Are you suggesting that we kill a fair number of the majority that are not militantly resistant to the coalition occupation to get the minority? You think that will work?

Also, you don't win by killing more on their side than they do on your side. That is just wrong. You win by achieving your objectives and ensuring that the opposition fail to achieve theirs.

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
Posts: 9455

Isn't one of the problems with winning this (any) war in a brutal fashion is the human cost?

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24795

quote:

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Originally posted by Smug Git
The problem with winning this war...etc.

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Registered: Feb 2004
Location: south afrika
Posts: 16815

quote:

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Originally posted by snarkychick
and a human services person.

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Just to the right of the moon
Posts: 3141

quote:

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Originally posted by Trenchant_Troll
The problem here is trying to win a war in a PC fashion. It is an unfortunate fact of war that they are not won by destroying buildings/strategic targets, but by killing more people on the other side than they kill on your side.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

I heard on the radio that the Amercian commanders had admitted that they have lost control of Fallujah and some other city. Thought that was a pretty surprising announcement (generally). Although it's good for lulling them into a false sense of security right before you send the Parachute Regiment in.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35669

It wasn't Fallujah, it was Najaf and Kut (or something beginning with K).

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

quote:

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Originally posted by philjit
... Although it's good for lulling them into a false sense of security right before you send the Parachute Regiment in.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

quote:

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Originally posted by Goatboy
Yeah, 'kill anything that looks like a Bradford or Leicester City supporter'.

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Registered: Nov 2003
Location: North Myrtle Beach SC
Posts: 3374

if their location can be found , there will probably be a special forces attempt to get them out .

but i do not Japan allowing their policy be changed like this , this is after all , the same culture that used to prefer cutting out ones intestines to precieved dishonor .

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

as opposed to us lot that used to disembowl people for public enjoyment

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

seriously though, from what I heard these are nikkon type tourists. Stupid naive idiots imo.

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