Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
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I guess there is a Frontline documentary coming up dealing with President Bush's religious beliefs and how they influence his personality and presidency. Fresh Air has a show looking at this that I happened to catch part of this morning. It's a 35 minute segment worth listening to. It seems as though his beliefs grant him the ability to make decisions without deep, critical analyses or without relying on others'; it all comes from God. I would like to have a discussion about this without resorting to attacks or defenses of religious beliefs in general. If it is true that Bush doesn't think critically due to his faith, it would seem to me to be good grounds for not supporting him. Again, this is not an attack on religion exclusively but on the critical faculties of a person influenced by a brand of philosophy which happens to be religion here.

I wonder if anyone would be able and willing to tape the frontline show for me. I'd like to watch it but it doesn't air here. If you can, get in touch with me. Thanks.

Edit: I just checked out the Frontline page and see that it is available online May 1.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Still Orygun
Posts: 10489

It's not bad enough that we have a president who makes "decisions without deep, critical analyses" but rather defers to his religious beliefs ... he BROADCASTS it. Yes, to me, that would be grounds alone, if there weren't other reasons, for not supporting him. And if he's re-elected, Russian mail-order brides, move over. Here comes American Mouse Bride.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
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Hmm, I am not religious, but I think he is and he uses his convictions to guide his philosophy, which is not necessarily bad. In fact, I don't see how you can say someone who is very religious automatically makes decisions "without deep, critical analyses or without relying on others." In some cases they think very hard about the course they will take and how it will reflect on them as a person. I read one of Johnny Cash's autobiographies and it was amazing how flawed, yet human and knowledgeable he was, yet he was guided, helped and - he felt - redeemed by his deep faith.

I think it is a mistake to say a person is religious so they are an idiot or don't think carefully about things. In fact, I am not sure of the connection. Unless you are talking about abortion, in that case people may use their beliefs to try to contravene Federal law, and that is not cool.

Frontline is cool though, they often have some great stuff.

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Registered: Jul 2000
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Boy, 180 from my last post a minute ago.

But, I think the whole line of attack that he's some kind of religious wingnut is mostly horseshit. He's a born-again Christian and he doesn't hide that fact, but that's not to say he's some sort of schitzo that thinks he's talking to God. That seems to me to be a pretty blatant distortion for the sake of not just a political agenda, but to hammer away at a resentment towards organized religion.

Bush says "As a Christian, I have faith that what I am doing is moral and right, and that basing decisions on what is moral and right is a fundamentally decent way to govern" and some portray that as "Religious whacko thinks God tells him how to run the country!"

Maybe I'm just not quite getting what case it is you're making, but I don't see anything wrong with morality having a role in politics, and I don't see why, by extension of that, secular morality is the only way to go. I've heard all the stuff of "Bush believes that the world will end soon and Jesus will return and so he is trying to facillitate that by starting world wars" horseshit and consider it be just a mean-spirited conspiracy theory, with no evidence to back it up.

What evidence do you have that shows that Bush believes his religious convictions mean that he doesn't have to think about things and the accussation that it means he doesn't feel the need to rely on other people's opinions, a claim I might add that runs directly counter to a lot of other liberal claims about his governing style. He's a religious guy and he believes it important to do things in a way that coincides with a moral system he gets through his religion. That doesn't seem like good grounds for not supporting him to me, especially with the plethora of good grounds for not supporting him out there. I'd go so far as to say that a president who DIDN'T consider it important to do the right thing, in an ethical and moral sense, would worry me more.

It just strikes me as baseless conspiracy theory mixed with a healthy dose of prejudice towards religion, I guess.

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Registered: Mar 2004
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I don't automatically assume that someone who is religious isn't capable of deeply analytical thought, or intense critical analysis, only that Dubya is not, and is also deeply religious. Maybe that's a nasty, sweeping statement, but I'll stick a brick by it.

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by ignatz mouse
I don't automatically assume that someone who is religious isn't capable of deeply analytical thought, or intense critical analysis, only that Dubya is not, and is also deeply religious. Maybe that's a nasty, sweeping statement, but I'll stick a brick by it.

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Registered: Mar 2004
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you just made a logical error, I was merely agreeing with nute's sentiments. as mudded would say, cheers.

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Registered: Jul 2000
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Huh?

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Registered: Mar 2004
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oh, go vote for yourself in the dumb fuck thread. and have a brick-kiss while you're at it. *brick.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

ignatz, we try to refrain from out right insults in the Political forum. (only exceptions to the rule being myself, smug or ChipsJr insulting funkyrooster)

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Registered: Mar 2004
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ok, but may I insult funkyrooster too?

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Registered: Jan 2002
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sorry, no can do. Insults towards the "italian stallion" are strictly reserved because they are not really insults, they just look like them.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Still Orygun
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and Paint, I sincerely apologize for disturbing the natural order of things with my uncalled for abuse of your esteemed personage.

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 5178

I don't have any problem with a person of faith being President. My only problem--and I have no particular reason to believe that President Bush is guilty of this--would be such a president either:
a) using his or her power to back policies which specifically favored individuals who shared his or her faith over others, or even people of any faith over atheists, or
b) ignoring substantial empirical evidence in favor of faith-based positions when making an important decision (e.g. "Most evidence and advisors suggest that it would be best to do X, but I believe that, despite the evidence, it is God's will that our country do Y. We'll do Y.")

I am somewhat disturbed by the terms in which he has framed our policies, especially in regard to the Middle East ("evildoers"), and to me, they strongly suggest that he views the conflicts in that area as fulfillment of prophecy. It still feels a bit to me as though we are on a crusade, despite the many times he has stated that we are not.

I am saddened by those who believe that it is just plain unacceptable to have a person who expresses a belief in Jesus as president, though.

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Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:

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Originally posted by ignatz mouse
and Paint, I sincerely apologize for disturbing the natural order of things with my uncalled for abuse of your esteemed personage.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Still Orygun
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One can be moral and ethical without being religious. So many religious people are neither moral nor ethical. When I listen to politicians from other countries debate, I am struck by how much more literate and how much less like automaton Stepford wives reading off teleprompters they are. I suppose it's not so much Dubya's religion as his general lack of erudition that bothers me. I'm just a knee-jerk reactionary and I should (and usually do) stay out of Politicas. *scurries back to TLF

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Registered: Sep 2000
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I didn't mean to insinuate at all that religious people are incapable of deep critical analyses nor that there is anything wrong with morality, religiously inspired or not, in politics.

I'm concerned that George Bush is a fundamentalist that views the world purely from a religious standpoint and perhaps, even more dangerously, see himself as an instrument of God in the fight against "evildoers." I'm afraid that the President may rely too much on his faith and relationship with God in making decisions. This is different from following one's morals as taught by a religious faith. If Bush (or any other president) believes that he has special priviledge or special religious duties, daresay a mandate, he loses the critical (as in important) motivation to seek alternative views and ideas in decision making. It is this reliance (or lack thereof with respect to wider viewpoints) that concerns me. Please note that I am not making assumptions about Bush, but talking about my fears should Bush hold particular types of beliefs. Whether it be Bush's beliefs in God, Valhallah, pixies, or dragon's, if it means that he believes he can make essentially unilateral decisions that do not reflect a consideration of wider viewpoints, I have a problem.

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Registered: Jul 2000
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quote:

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Originally posted by Nutrimentia
I'm concerned that George Bush is a fundamentalist that views the world purely from a religious standpoint and perhaps, even more dangerously, see himself as an instrument of God in the fight against "evildoers." I'm afraid that the President may rely too much on his faith and relationship with God in making decisions. This is different from following one's morals as taught by a religious faith. If Bush (or any other president) believes that he has special priviledge or special religious duties, daresay a mandate, he loses the critical (as in important) motivation to seek alternative views and ideas in decision making. It is this reliance (or lack thereof with respect to wider viewpoints) that concerns me. Please note that I am not making assumptions about Bush, but talking about my fears should Bush hold particular types of beliefs. Whether it be Bush's beliefs in God, Valhallah, pixies, or dragon's, if it means that he believes he can make essentially unilateral decisions that do not reflect a consideration of wider viewpoints, I have a problem.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Den
Posts: 11596

An ex-alcoholic finding Jesus is definitely where I would place my trust.

All those satanist liberals are just jealous that God isn't helping them with _their_ politics.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Den
Posts: 11596

It could just be brain damage, though.

Haha... I am definitely going to spend more time at Rense's site. I see he has millions of readers *giggle*

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: deep in the heart of...
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quote:

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"I urge all Texans to answer the call to serve those in need. By volunteering their time, energy or resources to helping others, adults and youngsters follow Christ's message of love and service in thought and deed."
Therefore, I, George W. Bush, Governor of Texas, do hereby proclaim June 10, 2000, Jesus Day in Texas and urge the appropriate recognition whereof,
In official recognition whereof,
I hereby affix my signature this
17th day of April, 2000.
"Jesus Day 2000" Proclamation

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Registered: Sep 2000
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No, I'm not assuming that Bush is any particular way. I've tried to convey my concern as couched in terms of IF he thought that way. I haven't seen any evidence either, although I've seen some circumstantial stuff that makes the possibility more plausible. But I'm not saying that I know how Bush thinks and I'm not drawing a connection between his (or anyone else's) beliefs and critical faculties.

But for example, when asked if Bush Jr. consulted with his dad about the war, he is reported to have replied that there is a different/higher/better Father to consult. Consulting God is fine and well, but to rely solely on that at the expense of consulting people with expertise and experience is not so good. IMHO.

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