Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

A simple solution in the face of an over-complicated situation:

Bremer, the military, et al, should announce via the Iraqi media, that the US and remaining coalition will be withdrawing from Iraq and handing over sovereignty on July 4, 2004 unless massive demonstrations from the Iraqi public indicate that they would prefer us to stay and help. Such demonstrations must be high profile and held on a daily basis between now and June 1st. Absence or poor turnout of such demonstrations will leave us to conclude that the Iraqis want to go it alone from here on, and so be it.

Either they will ask us to stay or they will ask us to leave, taking with us our military and our money. It will be their choice and they can make their wishes known for all to see. We would see once and for all where most Iraqis stand on this issue rather than reading jaded poll numbers. If they want us out, fine. If they want us to stay, it will be a show of solidarity for all Iraqis, neighboring states, and all Americans and the world to see in no uncertain terms.

It would be a gamble for Iraqis, but its their country. It would be a win/win situation for the coalition.

The End.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35658

It would be one of the most perfidious acts of untrustworthiness by a US government, though. If they had said before the invasion that this might happen, there wouldn't have been any coalition at all.

In any case, if the US pulls out and a fundamentalist government or a civil war or some type of anarchy takes place, the whole thing would have been so as to produce a worse case for the US than the pre-invasion situation when Saddam was in charge was, but at significant cost (100 billion dollars, or whatever it will end up costing).

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Registered: Dec 2002
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I would expect to see a lot of Iraqi's take to the streets to 'protest' for us to stay.... And then I would expect to see a small number of Iraqi's resort to violence against the protesters.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

Untrustworthyness? We would be asking Iraqis to make their feelings known over the thrum of polls designed to reveal the desired outcome of the pollster. I happen to think that, if faced with such a choice, the voice of the majority of Iraqis would be chanting something contrary to what much of the world would like to hear. If I am wrong, then they will be chanting "Yankee go home, your work here is done". What would be so wrong with that? Other than the fact it risks either the US and Britain, et al, losing "more" face or the nations booing on the sidelines losing "more" face. It's a risk that I, as an American, would be willing to take. How about Europe?

Yes, I think the result of such a "referendum" would be interesting indeed, and irrefutable, except among those that only see what they believe.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

quote:

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Originally posted by ZiM
I would expect to see a lot of Iraqi's take to the streets to 'protest' for us to stay.... And then I would expect to see a small number of Iraqi's resort to violence against the protesters.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35658

quote:

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Originally posted by Trenchant_Troll
Untrustworthyness? We would be asking Iraqis to make their feelings known over the thrum of polls designed to reveal the desired outcome of the pollster. I happen to think that, if faced with such a choice, the voice of the majority of Iraqis would be chanting something contrary to what much of the world would like to hear. If I am wrong, then they will be chanting "Yankee go home, your work here is done". What would be so wrong with that? Other than the fact it risks either the US and Britain, et al, losing "more" face or the nations booing on the sidelines losing "more" face. It's a risk that I, as an American, would be willing to take. How about Europe?

Yes, I think the result of such a "referendum" would be interesting indeed, and irrefutable, except among those that only see what they believe.

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Registered: Dec 2002
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TT, i think you're mistaken about what the world wants to see.
There's a great difference between what someone wants, and what someone expects.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

Perhaps. Besides, it's not like I expect this would ever happen. It was more just fodder for discussion. I do think that there is a conspicuous absence of of reliable data on where the majority of Iraqis' heads are at these days. I don't buy the polls, regardless of what they say, because polls are invariably slanted to achieve the desired outcome. I am talking about the public voices of the Iraqi people. So far all I have seen or heard are a number of Sunnis and shi'ites that are making noise in a powerplay between the two. You also get sound bites via the media as they seek out comments to make their various points. What I would like to know is where the majority, which is always silent, stands. That was the point of my little exercise here, nothing more. After all, my friends, you are as entrenched in your opinions as I am in mine. You simply like to think otherwise.

Cheers!

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Registered: Dec 2002
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For once, you're absolutely right. All polls about what the Iraqi's want is skewed by the preconceived notions of those polling, no matter where you look on the political axis. Very few people are known for having an open mind in politics. I, however, would like to point out that looking for those most audible will not necessarily result in the vote of the masses. You wiull have to do something significant to get those silent people you refer to, to actually speak up.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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For once? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! Nothing entrenched about that opinion is there? As for having the silent majority stirred to action? Not so hard when they see their future hanging in the balance. I expect it to reach that point sooner or later in Iraq and I expect it to happen in America in November. It should make for some interesting times.

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Registered: Dec 2002
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You're absolutely right, our liberty hangs in the balance.

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Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Dumbfucksville!
Posts: 12164

I'd be curious to know the following:

Would not those Iraqi's who would otherwise take to the streets in support of the U.S. be afraid to do so considering what the Baathists might do to them and their family's? After 30 years of despotism, I should think they would be more afraid of watching their backs then marching for Uncle Sam.

I think we need to divide that country up again. It appears that cats can't live with dogs sometimes.

Either way (whether they want us or not), we can't leave that shithole a worse shithole than it was before. (IMHO, we need to get a little more heavy-handed, and stop worrying about what Dan Rather, Peter Jennings, Ted Koppel, the New York Times, et al. will say.)

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Registered: Dec 2002
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so GFY, if it were unanimous and the iraqi people as a whole wanted us out, you wouldnt support a pullout? I'm not saying that's how things are, it's a what-if scenario; you know about those.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

I think that if faced with sinking or swimming, most people Iraqi or not will choose to at least try to swim. Maybe that is a naive and idealistic view, but hey, I thought maybe I would try to see it the way you more liberal pantywaists do. I'm fair that way.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
Posts: 5027

@GFY

I think that if left to their own devices, N. Iraq would break away to form Kurdistan, which would insantly start a conflict with Turkey.

The rest of Iraq would in turn become the "mini-me" of Iran.

The Baathists are not the big dogs any longer. The Shias are strong and hungry for power.

Cheers

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
Posts: 5027

Oh... and the heavy hand should be more concerned with the reaction of Iraqis than leftist western pundits

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

Your late, mudded. I was beginning to worry that you might have lost your edge.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
Posts: 5027

no... just wasting time in TLF

I think your proposal is interesting if successful, but too likely to backfire IMHO.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

Mudded, I don't care what the runes say about you, you've got class....in that back of the boat sort of way of course.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
Posts: 5027

the back of the longship is the best spot to watch from, when keel-hauling the likes of you.

cheers

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Registered: Apr 2001
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Posts: 16728

this is as good a place as any to mention Thomas Hamill escaped the iraqis i guess.

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20040502/D82AFB2G0.html

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: is futile
Posts: 5027

great news , thanks

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24755

quote:

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Originally posted by mudded
the back of the longship is the best spot to watch from, when keel-hauling the likes of you.

cheers

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