The Asylum Private Messages Options Search Blogs Images Chat Cam Portals Calendar FAQ's Join  
Asylum Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.8 Asylum Forums > Políticás der Monde > Powell out? Rumsfeld teetering?
Pages (3): [1] 2 3 »   Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread [new thread]    [post reply]
DevilMoon
passive stalker?

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

Powell out? Rumsfeld teetering?

An aide of Colin Powell's has given an interview saying the Secretary is not interested in serving another term. There have been some denials, but really people have been talking about this for awhile.

Rumsfeld usually is able to tapdance around the Pentagon press corp. The other day they were actually at the top of their game with him. For once he actually had no answer to some of the questions posed to him, seemed unsure of what to say. Partially, I think due to the fact that the Iraqi prisoner investigation is a legal investigation and he had to carefully couch some of his comments and partially because he really did not have any answer for some of the questions. He was also in a situation where he could not be flip. By the end of the press conference he regained a bit of his trademark Rumsfeldiness. Today Bush privately let Rusfeld know he was unhappy with the fact that this investigation was proceeding, but he was not aware of the scope of the problem until it was on TV. Afterwards, administration officials spread the fact that Bush is unhappy with Rumsfeld to media outlets.

I think Bush forgives mistakes if the person is up front with him about it (probably why Tenet is still around.) When Chavez was the labor secretary nominee and it turned out she hired an illegal immigrant, Bush pulled the rug out from her nomination and she had to withdraw.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 07:52 AM
DevilMoon is offline Click Here to See the Profile for DevilMoon Click here to Send DevilMoon a Private Message Find more posts by DevilMoon Add DevilMoon to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
DevilMoon
passive stalker?

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

quote:
Q Mr. Secretary, General Myers said on Sunday that he had not seen the report. I don't believe you had seen the report even if -- I don't know if you have now. Isn't this something you would have liked to have been flagged about? This seems so different. It's had such a profound effect around the world, particularly the Arab world. Shouldn't you have known about that? And General Myers certainly knew about it because he asked "60 Minutes" to withhold the pictures, and still didn't read the report.

SEC. RUMSFELD: It's -- I guess the way to put it is that the department has been aware of it since it was first noticed, and up the chain of command we're told that there were investigations into alleged abuses as long ago as last January 16th. It takes time for reports to be finished -- correction -- to be gathered. This is a very comprehensive report. There are a number of -- I listed six investigations that are in various stages. And they move up in a process, as General Pace described. And it seems to me that the people who should be seeing it at each stage were seeing it at each stage.

Q But to plan for a response. I mean, it's been one week now since it was on "60 Minutes II." It's the first time we've heard you talk about it. In effect, the damage has already been done. There didn't seem to be a plan to even deal with this.

SEC. RUMSFELD: Are you critiquing the Department of Defense's PR handling of it? Is that what the question is?

Q I'll leave that to you.

SEC. RUMSFELD: I mean, the fact of the matter is that this is a serious problem. And it's something that the department is addressing.


quote:
Q Mr. Secretary, on Capitol Hill today there was quite a bit of anger expressed at the fact that they're just finding out about this now. I mean, Senator McCain said, quote, "It's a neglect of the responsibilities that Secretary Rumsfeld and the civilian leaders of the Pentagon to keep the Congress informed." Senator Levin said, quote, "It's been a month since that report has been available. It should have been sent to this committee immediately."

Congress says they were kept in the dark on this. And I know you've described the routine, ordinary way these things are handled, but given the extraordinary ramifications of what was going on here and the potential to undercut U.S. credibility and the whole policy of Iraq, shouldn't you have done a better job keeping Congress informed? At least they feel they should have been kept informed better.

SEC. RUMSFELD: Well, we informed the world on January 16th that these investigations were under way. It seems to me that that is a perfectly proper thing to do. The investigations were announced. The world knew it. It was briefed to the press and the world.

Q But you gave no idea of the scale of what –

SEC. RUMSFELD: We didn't know the scale.

quote:
Q General, a quick follow-up on that, please. Could you explain to us why the Taguba report was classified secret, no foreign distribution? Those of us who have read the report, there's clearly nothing in there that's inherently secret, such as intelligence sources and methods of troop movement. Was this kept secret because it would be embarrassing to the world, particularly the Arab world?

GEN. PACE: First of all, I do not know specifically why it was labeled secret. Potentially there are parts of the hundreds and hundreds of pages of documentation that are classified. I do not know that to be a fact, but normally we will classify a document at the highest level of anything that's in that document.

But as the secretary pointed out, immediately we told the world that we thought we had a problem. So there has been no attempt to hide this. What we've been trying to do is find out the truth of the matter so we can get on about correcting; finding out who did what, and then taking a proper action.

Q Mr. Secretary, can you say why it was classified secret? Do you know?

SEC. RUMSFELD: No, you'd have to ask the classifier.

quote:
Q Mr. Secretary, have you yet read the Taguba report?

SEC. RUMSFELD: Yeah. You're -- I think you're talking about the executive summary. That's -- I've seen the executive summary, the –

Q Have you read through it, sir?

SEC. RUMSFELD: I've been through it. Whether -- have read every page -- no. There's a lot of references and documentation to laws and conventions and procedures and requirements. But I have certainly read the conclusions and the other aspects of it.

quote:
Q Just to follow up on Jamie's question, given the ramifications of not only what is in this report, the findings specifically, but the pictures, the photographs that you knew, as of a couple of weeks ago, were going to be broadcast, why did you not feel incumbent upon you at that time to ask for the findings, to take a look at the pictures beforehand, so you could perhaps be prepared to deal with some of the world reaction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: I think I did inquire about the pictures and was told that we didn't have copies.

(To staff.) Is that correct?

STAFF: We didn't have them here, that's for sure.

SEC. RUMSFELD: Yeah, I didn't have them.

STAFF: We didn't.


Transcript

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 07:58 AM
DevilMoon is offline Click Here to See the Profile for DevilMoon Click here to Send DevilMoon a Private Message Find more posts by DevilMoon Add DevilMoon to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
DevilMoon
passive stalker?

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

quote:
Source: Bush unhappy with defense chief

Bush 'not satisfied' with how he learned of prison abuse

Wednesday, May 5, 2004 Posted: 9:32 PM EDT (0132 GMT)

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- President Bush told Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld on Wednesday that he was "not satisfied" at the way he received information about charges that Iraqi prisoners had been abused by U.S. soldiers at Abu Ghraib prison, a senior administration official told CNN.

At a private Oval Office meeting, Bush complained about learning of the existence of photographs showing Iraqi prisoners being humiliated and degraded from media accounts, the official said.

"He was not happy, and he let Secretary Rumsfeld know about it," the official said.

Bush also voiced concern that he was not kept up to speed on important information about the scope of the problem -- and how the Pentagon was handling it, the official said.

Rumsfeld also made clear that he, too, felt "he didn't know some things he should have," according to the senior official, along with another official.

Despite the blunt exchange, however, both Bush and his press secretary, Scott McClellan voiced confidence in Rumsfeld, who has been under fire on Capitol Hill for the way the Pentagon has handled the burgeoning controversy.
more

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:10 AM
DevilMoon is offline Click Here to See the Profile for DevilMoon Click here to Send DevilMoon a Private Message Find more posts by DevilMoon Add DevilMoon to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

Rumsfeld will resign within the next two months I reckon. A more "diplomatic" type person will be his replacement.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:15 AM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

More photos (authenticty unknown) out in the Washington Post today I see. Perhaps Rumsfeld will be resigning within a month, not two.


Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:20 AM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
DevilMoon
passive stalker?

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
Posts: 10477

quote:
Originally posted by philjit
More photos (authenticty unknown)...]

That is the same moron that is in some of the photos which were released earlier. Her family is in quoted in a story saying that she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Some gems:
"It's ridiculous," said Destiny Goin, 21, who has lived with England's extended family since high school and considers herself England's sister. "It's her picture that you see more than anyone else's, and she really wasn't involved. She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time."

England was trained to be a "paper pusher" who helped process prisoners at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad, said Goin and England's brother-in-law James Klinestiver. She was in the area where the photos were taken to visit friends in the 372nd who served as guards, the two said. Goin and Klinestiver said the family is furious with the comments of President Bush, who said he was "disgusted" by the photographs. "He doesn't know what these guys are going through," Klinestiver said. Referring to Bush's limited National Guard service during the Vietnam War, he added, "How can you make decisions for our military unless you've served yourself?"

She hasn't been charged, but I imagine she'll end up in the brig.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:31 AM
DevilMoon is offline Click Here to See the Profile for DevilMoon Click here to Send DevilMoon a Private Message Find more posts by DevilMoon Add DevilMoon to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

"She was just in the wrong place at the wrong time on multiple occasssions."

heheheh

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:41 AM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Goatboy
the anticlimax

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

It would be a credit to Bush and his understanding of the ramifications of these events if he does push Rumsfeld.

Pity it won't mean shit to the Arabs though. Not that much would.

__________________
Arbeit Macht Frei

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 10:59 AM
Goatboy is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Goatboy Click here to Send Goatboy a Private Message Find more posts by Goatboy Add Goatboy to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Nutrimentia
plata o plomo

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
Posts: 9454

I thought that was a little kid.

__________________
The Law of Fives is never wrong. CzEch yerself b4 joo rEck yerself. Hi-yo!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 01:01 PM
Nutrimentia is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Nutrimentia Click here to Send Nutrimentia a Private Message Visit Nutrimentia's homepage! Find more posts by Nutrimentia Add Nutrimentia to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

Powell has looked as if he is eating shit every time he speaks in favour of Bush's policies. Even so, he is about the only redeeming feature of the Bush administration, to my mind.

__________________
I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 01:44 PM
Smug Git is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Smug Git Click here to Send Smug Git a Private Message Find more posts by Smug Git Add Smug Git to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Trenchant_Troll
ad hominid

Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
Posts: 24748

quote:
Originally posted by philjit
More photos (authenticty unknown) out in the Washington Post today I see. Perhaps Rumsfeld will be resigning within a month, not two.




I agree. I thought we were keeping them on shorter leashes these days.

__________________
I think the best possible way to show Iran that nuclear weapons are not what they want is to give them one. - Steven Colbert

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 02:13 PM
Trenchant_Troll is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Trenchant_Troll Click here to Send Trenchant_Troll a Private Message Find more posts by Trenchant_Troll Add Trenchant_Troll to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
MstrG
The Talamasca

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 10152

quote:
Originally posted by philjit
Rumsfeld will resign within the next two months I reckon. A more "diplomatic" type person will be his replacement.

I'd wager a large sum (if I had a large sum to wager) that won't happen. There's no way the US would concede, in this manner, that Rumsfeld's planning in the events in Iraq (and elsewhere) was anything close to a mistake, which is what his being replaced would signify. That would have the effect of showing weakness to those that would have us pulling out immediately. It won't happen prior to the election at all, and probably not for some time after it.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 04:10 PM
MstrG is offline Click Here to See the Profile for MstrG Click here to Send MstrG a Private Message Visit MstrG's homepage! Find more posts by MstrG Add MstrG to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

Having him in place for the election is an electoral liability as well though. Less damage if he goes early than the damage he could do to the campaign for re-election when it begins stepping up a gear.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 04:47 PM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
funkyrooster
King Leer

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Just to the right of the moon
Posts: 3141

Cornelius, answer your PM's you cunt

Sorry. carry on

Rumsfelt doctrine. Good at winning the war. Load of arse at winning the peace. Which is a bit of a problem when the purpose of a war in this case is to make a better peace

__________________
Ein Reich
Ein Volk
Ein Rooster

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 04:55 PM
funkyrooster is offline Click Here to See the Profile for funkyrooster Click here to Send funkyrooster a Private Message Find more posts by funkyrooster Add funkyrooster to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
zim
-

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 3063

cnn.com:
"White House rejects call for Rumsfeld resignation"
cnn breaking news email:
"-- President Bush says he is sorry for the humiliation suffered by Iraqi prisoners at the hands of U.S. troops."

--reading the article, it seems he apologised to the king of jordan for the humiliation suffered, -- hasn't said much to the iraqi's

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast...main/index.html

[spoiler]

__________________
insert witty remark

Last edited by CHiPsJr on 11-09-2006 at 08:23 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 07:28 PM
zim is offline Click Here to See the Profile for zim Click here to Send zim a Private Message Find more posts by zim Add zim to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Paint CHiPs
Viva Le Me

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26420

Word on the grapevine for months has been that Powell was going to resign after this term. I haven't been able to verify it ever, and chalked it up in part to wishful thinking, but it's certainly been a pervasive rumor, and something that makes some sense if you know a bit about Powell's temperament. I do expect that Bush will be making a lot of significant cabinet changes after the election, should he win. Perhaps an ever-increasing electoral pressure may cause him to bump up those changes to the summer to try and get some electoral leverage out of it. I don't think badly of Rumsfield at all, truth be told, though funky's assessment of him is basically my own. I think, in terms of carrying out a few certain courses of action, he's the best of the best. His problem is he has absolutly no notion of his own limitations, which are in themselves fairly severe.

It wouldn't surprise me if they got rid of him pre-election, but I agree with MstrG in that anything that could even be loosely construed as admitting to error is out of the realm of possibility for this administration, to the point that if they WANTED to get rid of Rumsfeld, they wouldn't just for the SAKE of not appearing like they were admitting error. They're that committed to feigning total confidence, I believe.

Powell I don't think they'll get rid of so much as not be able to keep him. I think he has it in his head anyway and there's not going to be a whole lot Bush and co can do when he decides to duck and run.

Very little of any of that is substantiated, just my own personal readings on the men involved.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:11 PM
Paint CHiPs is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Paint CHiPs Click here to Send Paint CHiPs a Private Message Visit Paint CHiPs's homepage! Find more posts by Paint CHiPs Add Paint CHiPs to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

I'd have thought that if Rumsfeld were to go, it'd have to look like his idea, rather than that he were sacked.

I have thought that it is a testament to Powell's sense of loyalty that he has hung around this long, but I could be misreading his feelings on the Bush administration (on which I am hardly an expert).

__________________
I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:19 PM
Smug Git is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Smug Git Click here to Send Smug Git a Private Message Find more posts by Smug Git Add Smug Git to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
skalie
the honourable

Registered: Sep 2001
Location: ........
Posts: 15003

quote:
Originally posted by funkyrooster
Rumsfelt doctrine. Good at winning the war. Load of arse at winning the peace.


Er, was there ever a chance of losing "the war", considering the playing field?

Woefully high tech babylon vs an Iraq rendered flaccid by a decade of sanctions, shall we exchange notes on air supremacy?

Except, er, no-one on the Arab side of the war seemed to have taken much notice of the "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended" hoo har, if last months statistics are anything to go by.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 08:24 PM
skalie is offline Click Here to See the Profile for skalie Click here to Send skalie a Private Message Find more posts by skalie Add skalie to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
zim
-

Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 3063

one thing that confuses me is why people have a problem with rumsfeld. i wouldn't want him running anything domestic. i wouldn't want him in charge of policy making. he's in charge of taking action upon the decisions of others -- and he's good at it.

__________________
insert witty remark

Last edited by CHiPsJr on 11-09-2006 at 08:23 AM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 09:06 PM
zim is offline Click Here to See the Profile for zim Click here to Send zim a Private Message Find more posts by zim Add zim to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
I'd have thought that if Rumsfeld were to go, it'd have to look like his idea, rather than that he were sacked.


of course, I doubt he will publicly fired, but a resigination seems t me to be something that is on the cardds. He is, after all, pretty old. That's not a reason for him stepping down really, but it can neasily be used as such. Seems to me that if the pressure builds on him to step down it may be necessary in order to limit the damage that might be caused by him staying. I mean, only the most rabidly partisan person can honestly say that this Presidential race is not going to be close. From the viewpoint of an outsdier looking in, I;d say that the less damage to the Adminstration's credibility the better, and as if Iraq doesn;t get better (or should I say the general perception of the situation in Iraq doesn't get better) then Rumsfeld will have to go less damage his Commander-in-Cheif's chances of remaining in said position securely.

I think Rumsfeld will resign, and it will done in a manner whereby it looks as little like a political move as is possible. It's all about balance at the end of the day, and Rumsfeld going would have a multi-pronged beneift. It would instantly close down the Democrats latest debating point, whilst at the same time showing to the floating voters that the Administration is listening to all aspects of American society and not just a partsian clique.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 09:13 PM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

quote:
Originally posted by ZiM
one thing that confuses me is why people have a problem with rumsfeld. i wouldn't want him running anything domestic. i wouldn't want him in charge of policy making. he's in charge of taking action upon the decisions of others -- and he's good at it.


An example would be that 'Old Europe' thing, which was outside his remit (even Bush wouldn't have appointed Rumsfeld to a diplomatic role); it caused problems for other people whose job was to conduct diplomacy. And in any case, he was in charge or post-war Iraq, Jay Garner was his man (sacked ahead of schedule to be replaced by Paul Bremer from State, at least in part because the level of planning for post-war Iraq was inadequate), and then he had overall control taken from him and given to Rice because it wasn't going so good. All that was part of his job, he wanted to keep control of running the post-war Iraq in any case, and it didn't go so good.

He is also ultimately responsible for this latest stuff, happening as it did on his watch (although direct responsibility isn't in evidence at all) and he tried to keep the media from showing the pictures.

__________________
I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 09:20 PM
Smug Git is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Smug Git Click here to Send Smug Git a Private Message Find more posts by Smug Git Add Smug Git to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
funkyrooster
King Leer

Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Just to the right of the moon
Posts: 3141

quote:
Originally posted by skalie
Er, was there ever a chance of losing "the war", considering the playing field?

Woefully high tech babylon vs an Iraq rendered flaccid by a decade of sanctions, shall we exchange notes on air supremacy?

Except, er, no-one on the Arab side of the war seemed to have taken much notice of the "Major combat operations in Iraq have ended" hoo har, if last months statistics are anything to go by.



There are different ways of winning the war. Rumsfelt advocated a relatively lightweight approach that bypassed any real or supposed strongholds (whose C2 had been utterly denuded by airpower anyway) and went straight for the head. Forget the body, go straight for the head. Problem is, that although the head was indeed destroyed, the body still has life in it and the forces initially employed were not enough to flood the country and close off the borders to prevent outside influence from entering. A lightweight force was only able to do a lightweight job of trying to secure the peace, and it wasn't strong enough to stand the continued existence of the Iraqi army who's disbandment is generally considered to have been a mistake.

__________________
Ein Reich
Ein Volk
Ein Rooster

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 05-06-2004 09:47 PM