Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

What is a "European"?

Discuss

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Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
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A lily-white limp-wristed commie-coddling seldom-bathed snotty-faced hive-minded pathologically naive and lazy inefficiency expert, incapable of comprehending or dealing with the use of force by the unscrupulous or of understanding the concept of personal responsibility, utterly averse to accountability or consequences of any kind, and equally willing both to lick the bootsoles of those who would enslave him and to bite the hand that feeds him.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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heh... of course I know you're joking, but interestingly that bizarre perception is the one that inspired the thread. I shall wait to see what else is written before saying much more.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Still Orygun
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it's difficult for me to believe you're actually looking for serious answers.

ok, edited to add more serious answer. the europeans I know and have met, here in the states and abroad, although most have been educated people, by and large are more interesting and easier to talk to than most americans I meet. they're more gracious, more interested in world affairs and knowledgeable about said affairs. europeans think more about the world and people around them in general, maybe because they have to what with being sandwiched in there and all, but still in my book it makes them a better class of humans. most americans make me want to leave the country now and with a machine gun blasting on the way out. ok, serious except for that last bit, I'd need a grenade launcher.

and I still think it's a trick question.

Last edited by ignatz mouse on 05-11-2004 at 07:17 AM

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Registered: Jan 2002
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I qam looking for an accurate answer. The reason being is that for me european is a very multifaceted term. I am English, and I live in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, which also makes me British. Britain is a memebr of the European Union and in that sense I also have a european identity. I have noticed, not just here but on other boards, that the term "european" is thrown around a lot, and is usally defined along the lines of what ChipsJr said. What I find interesting is that the people that say such things are usually anglophiles, so have atendancy to exclude Britain from there defintion even though, in reality (to me at least) Britain is part of Europe as well as being a nation state.

This brings me on to the term "Europe". Like "european2 it is often used to define somewhere as if it is a state or a country. The borders however are never clearly defined, and it's basically used as a catch-all phrase (I think) for France and Germany. This is kind of a kick in the teeth for the other 23 countries of the European Union ergo "Europe".

If we, for example, take the war in Iraq, 15 of the now 25 nations in the EU publicly supported the military action. Yet when talking about "Europe" there remains the comment that (it seems) that "Europe wanted to appease Saddam and terrorists and didn't have the balls to fight" (or words to that effect). This strikes me as odd given an overall majority of nations in the EU supported the war, and an overwhelming majority of the total population of the EU did as well. The decision of the leaders of France and Germany are cosnidered, it seems, to constitute the "european view" even though their view was clearly in the minority across both the leaders of the memebr nations and the continent's population as a whole.

phorbie has often railed against people for making generalised statements about Americans because of the "melting pot" and it seems to me that the same criticism should be made against those that talk about "Europe" in such general terms, especially more so when what is being said contradicts reality.

I also have a problem with the belief that "Europe" is somehow invariably left wing. This is simply not true. The key difference though is historical circumstance and it's affect on public policy. The oft cited evidence of "socialism" in Europe is the existance of socialised healthcare, be it insurance based provision or, in the case of the UK, state run hospitals and services. If you place these things within the historical context of which they were brought in it becomes clearly that they were created out of necessity. This is why, after they were created and the right regained power, the right did not disband the programmes, because they knew that they could not else there would be no electorate to voet for them. In multiple nations totally ravaged by one, state provision for healthcare was essential, and once you have introduced such a thing it is political impossible to remove it else lose office. Whilst european nations may appear to be following left wing policies they are not, in a lot of circumatnces doing so because of left wing principles. They do so because of political expediency.

Might comment some more in a bit.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Still Orygun
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I include the UK when I speak of europeans. I am not an anglophile. Feel free to generalize all you want about americans, as long as your generalizations are largely negative and involve lots of reality tv and lousy education. as for viewing europeans as very left-wing, I don't, I take it on a country by country basis. (you probably weren't replying to me but I thought I'd respond anyway.)

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Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:

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Originally posted by ignatz mouse
(you probably weren't replying to me but I thought I'd respond anyway.)

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Registered: Mar 2004
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I think it is fair to say there is a typical ignorant american mentality of "we are a superpower, we don't have to care about the woes of the little brown people, we make the rules, back to my microwave cooking show" ... maybe we don't have the centuries of history to know better and maybe europeans don't have the luxury of distance to be more ignorant, but still, most of my countrymen make me want to buy a 'gun control's for sissies' bumper sticker.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: zanzibar
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europeans wear funny shoes. when in doubt look at the shoes.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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example of said funny shoes?

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Registered: Jun 2002
Location: Just to the right of the moon
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I love it when Americans criticise mainland Europeans for being squeamish when it comes to the use of force. I advise them to visit the gaves at Verdun, where the French and Germans shared 758,000 casualties. Or perhaps Passchendale, where the British suffered 310,000 casualties in one battle alone. Of the 20 bloodiest battles in history, 18 have been fought in Europe or European Russia, and the countries involved devastated. Might be one of the reasons why Europeans are so circumspect when it comes to the use of force

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Registered: Jan 2002
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quote:

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Originally posted by funkyrooster
Passchendale

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Den
Posts: 11311

A sophisticated, cynical, possibly drunk nationalist, an arrogant, educated and responsible sceptic who couldn't actually care less.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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quote:

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Originally posted by CHiPsJr
A lily-white limp-wristed commie-coddling seldom-bathed snotty-faced hive-minded pathologically naive and lazy inefficiency expert, incapable of comprehending or dealing with the use of force by the unscrupulous or of understanding the concept of personal responsibility, utterly averse to accountability or consequences of any kind, and equally willing both to lick the bootsoles of those who would enslave him and to bite the hand that feeds him.

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Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:

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Originally posted by philjit
8< BLAH BLAH BLAH....Might comment some more in a bit.

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Registered: Aug 2001
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quote:

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Originally posted by philjit
take the war in Iraq, 15 of the now 25 nations in the EU publicly supported the military action.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Den
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quote:

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Originally posted by Trenchant_Troll
How 'bout you shut the fuck up

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Registered: Oct 2001
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If it weren't for Europe and European history, there'd likely be no United States. I find it odd that we have such weird perceptions about one another. And Rooster's right (of course). Europe has the bloodiest history of any place on earth. Well, it also HAS history, in the recorded sense, more than some other places. I shouldn't even say that. Mudded will come in here and tell me that my own continent has historical records of some sort, but my Eurocentric metanarrative, or something, has blinded me to it.

I don't think Euros are squeamish about violence. I've seen their football fans. However, on a national level, I think they're takin a breather. Hell, we still have trouble gettin over our own civil war, and that was a century and a half ago. It's only been a generation or two since WWII, and a shorter time before that the War To End All Wars. They need to get a chance to work themselves back into it.

When I think of Europe, I imagine of the heirs to the legacy of Germanic and Roman wars and the ensuing waves of barbarians washing across the continent and being absorbed and assimilated over time. I don't envision dirty teens lusting after Levis jeans and American cigarettes. I think many Americans picture European kids begging for chocolates from GIs when they think of yer continent.

Last edited by Mugtoe on 05-11-2004 at 03:11 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by Mugtoe
Well, it also HAS history, in the recorded sense, more than some other places. I shouldn't even say that. Mudded will come in here and tell me that my own continent has historical records of some sort, but my Eurocentric metanarrative, or something, has blinded me to it.

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Registered: Oct 2001
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I'd say that Asians have a much different mindset, however. They make better subjects as a whole than Euros and their offspring. Or at least they've been conditioned to it over time, Mongols aside. Perhaps not as dynamic, but certainly more stable on the whole.

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Registered: Mar 2004
Location: USA
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quote:

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Originally posted by Coincidence
It's always nice to know that we can look to USA for inspiration in how to be a human being.
Besides, Troll and fellow white freedom lovers: How many generations ago were your ancestors europeans?

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Several. Indeed, my ancesters, like a great many Americans quit Europe in favor of a decent place to live and to get the fuck away from Europeans.

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Registered: Sep 2000
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As Phil has asked for a serious definition, I'll state that it's almost impossible for me to generalize about as population this diverse. It is hard for me to think of ANY generalization that would apply equally well to Scots and Bulgarians.

If I were to differentiate Europeans from the rest of the globe, I'd isolate the following characteristics: 1. Relatively high level of technological development; 2. A generally (though not universally) more highbrow cultural aesthetic; and 3. Governmental structures that recognize that the the state exists to serve the citizens rather than vice-versa, manifested in relatively complex and comprehensive systems of social welfare.

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Registered: Jul 2001
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quote:

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Originally posted by CHiPsJr
As Phil has asked for a serious definition, I'll state that it's almost impossible for me to generalize about as population this diverse. It is hard for me to think of ANY generalization that would apply equally well to Scots and Bulgarians.

If I were to differentiate Europeans from the rest of the globe, I'd isolate the following characteristics: 1. Relatively high level of technological development; 2. A generally (though not universally) more highbrow cultural aesthetic; and 3. Governmental structures that recognize that the the state exists to serve the citizens rather than vice-versa, manifested in relatively complex and comprehensive systems of social welfare.

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