past acts of a culture have no bearing on what it does today

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Dingle
Prison Rapemaster

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10231

past acts of a culture have no bearing on what it does today

This topic came up in chat, and due to the complete lack of civil discourse I'm posing the question here.

Not really a question, more of an opinion on the following statement:

quote:
[01:24] <Chester> well i can contribute this John Doe gem from PDM..he basically said that past acts of a culture have no bearing on what it does today, that's pretty dumb

While there was no civil discourse in chat, hopefully there will be here.

My opinion is that most countries evolve (or revolve) and change politically so quickly that there is a very limited time in which you can hold any country responsible for its history. I guess what i'm saying is the blame comes down to the HNIC.

You can't hold Germany responsible for the holicaust when making political decisions today, because Hitler and the nazis are long gone. But you can hold Cuba responsible for the things it's sitting dictator has done over the past 40+ years.

The only decent rebuttel posted in chat was this:

[01:31] <Chester> never heard the Santayana quote PrisonRapemaster?
[01:31] <Chester> those who ignore the past are doomed to repeat it
[01:32] <Chester> which means that you always take the past into account when working in the present

I agree with the quote, but not on this premise. History is very valuable, and teaches us many things, and in fact without history, advancement of any kind wouldn't exist and we'd be amoeba. But I think using history as a tool, and using history as an excuse, are night and day. If we started judging people today on their history, the 230 years of US history, including slavery, has nothing on the violent history of England, Egypt, China, or dozens, hundreds, of other countries who have long violent, brutal, oppressive histories.

I can best sum up my view with this analogy: Let's say I stole a CD once 15 years ago. Should I be considered a thief today because of that? The analogy isn't perfect, because the leadership of countries is very dynamic. Anyways...

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05-19-2004 08:50 AM

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Rokkr
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quote:
[01:24] well i can contribute this John Doe gem from PDM..he basically said that past acts of a culture have no bearing on what it does today, that's pretty dumb

I made that comment and I still fail to see how you can infer anything about responsibility for anything in it.

You still fail to grasp what I said. Past acts always have a bearing on present ones, if nothing else than to learn from past mistakes.
Nowhere in that statement do I even come close to stating that a present culture is responsible for the actions of it's ancestors.

If you feel our discourse was uncivil, perhaps it's because your inferences were so far off the point. I'll admit to getting frustrated when people insist on arguing about something I didn't say as opposed to something I did.

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05-19-2004 09:25 AM

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Dingle
Prison Rapemaster

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Well rather than being an idiot why didn't you just say something really insightful like "I think history has an effect on the future" and you could've walked away a big winner, because how can I argue with such wisdom? I bet you claim the sky is blue and grass is green also, extreme insight.

This thread is not to spar with you anyway Rokkr, it's to discuss to what extent a nation bears responsibility for acts committed in the past.

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05-19-2004 10:03 AM

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Rokkr
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No Dingle, this thread is merely an excuse for you to parade your hurt feelings over being ill treated.

If my statement was SO self obvious, why did you repeatedly fail to comprehend it?

And I have to say, my treatment of you was no more or less civil than your of me.
I'll refrain from calling you an idiot and be more civil than you here.

Oh and in answer to the question in your first post.
If you stole a CD 15 years ago, yes you are still a thief today. You may be a repentant and reformed thief, but you are still a thief.
Does a murderer all of a sudden not become one when he repents his act?

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05-19-2004 10:15 AM

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philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
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errr is it more are there two different things being discussed here?

(a) historical precedence should always be considered when making policy decisions.

and

(b) what a nation did 200 years ago should not be used a measure of their moral fortittude today.

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05-19-2004 10:20 AM

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euphorbia
caustic milk - hybrid

Registered: Apr 2001
Location:
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quote:
Originally posted by Dingle
Well rather than being an idiot

IM TELLING!!!!! /nute

alternatives:

a la 4b:

"Im not going to call you an idiot, but if I did it would be meritorious."

a la phil:

"there are many useless worthless fucking cunt idiots in the world and you may well be one of them"

other suggestions?

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05-19-2004 02:01 PM

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Caffeine
Caffeine

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Well, 15 year ago Dingle will always be a thief in that exact situation. Has Dingle or the situation changed enough that he is no longer a thief? That's completely subjective in a very easy to understand way.

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05-20-2004 12:57 AM

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MstrG
The Talamasca

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No, we're not going to pay reparations.

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05-20-2004 12:58 AM

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bunkum
Sanditon

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Rokkr, I really don't get the statement about stealing a CD in the past, and still being a thief, by virtue of that one action. If you once gave a dollar to a homeless person, 15 years before, does that make you currently a charitable person?

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05-20-2004 01:23 AM

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Dingle
Prison Rapemaster

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If that were the case, bunkum, there's not an honest person on the planet.

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05-20-2004 01:39 AM

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MstrG
The Talamasca

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Of course there isn't.

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05-20-2004 01:42 AM

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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness

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There aren't any honest people on the planet.

-m

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Mordecai
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Damn you G, beating me to it.

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MstrG
The Talamasca

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I'd never beat you.

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05-20-2004 01:44 AM

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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness

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I appreciate that.

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05-20-2004 01:51 AM

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Dingle
Prison Rapemaster

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Location: Minneapolis, MN
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Fine, everyone is dishonest, except for maybe the couple in the other thread who didn't know you had to have sex to procreate. They've probably never sinned.

The question then, is, what bearing does stealing that cd 15 years ago have on my credibility today? I say absolutely none, even if everyones complete criminal history was common knowledge. If I made a habit of stealing things since then, or if I had stolen last week, a pattern could be established that I am a thief and will likely continue stealing.

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05-20-2004 01:52 AM

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Cruise Director
nobody special

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Zion
Posts: 4521

Re: past acts of a culture have no bearing on what it does today

quote:
Originally posted by Dingle

You can't hold Germany responsible for the holicaust when making political decisions today, because Hitler and the nazis are long gone. But you can hold Cuba responsible for the things it's sitting dictator has done over the past 40+ years.

So my question is this: What is the statute of limitations on, let's say, a holocaust? How long does a country suffer the stigma before the World let's it go? In the case of your dictator, do we immediately lift trade restrictions the day the dictator dies?

Just curious.

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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness

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quote:
Originally posted by Dingle
Fine, everyone is dishonest, except for maybe the couple in the other thread who didn't know you had to have sex to procreate. They've probably never sinned.

The question then, is, what bearing does stealing that cd 15 years ago have on my credibility today? I say absolutely none, even if everyones complete criminal history was common knowledge. If I made a habit of stealing things since then, or if I had stolen last week, a pattern could be established that I am a thief and will likely continue stealing.

I think I had this discussion already, when Nute called W a hypocrite for enacting tough anti drug laws while having used drugs in his past.

So really, I'd say none, unless you were weighing in how it feels to shoplift cds. It might enhance your credibility at that point.

-m

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05-20-2004 01:56 AM

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Dingle
Prison Rapemaster

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Location: Minneapolis, MN
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I don't know. I don't even know how well the sitting dictator argument holds up. Cuba should be held responsible today for what Castro did 30 years ago because he has established a pattern of oppression which continues today. Had he had a change of heart 20 years ago, who knows.

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05-20-2004 01:59 AM

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ignatz mouse
Mistress of Tranquility

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quote:
Originally posted by Rokkr
Oh and in answer to the question in your first post.
If you stole a CD 15 years ago, yes you are still a thief today. You may be a repentant and reformed thief, but you are still a thief.
Does a murderer all of a sudden not become one when he repents his act?

Rokkr, are you really this much of a simpleton? do you really believe the question of how one classifies a human being, or a nation, over time, is really that black and white? do you truly lack all compassion, forgiveness and humanity?

your statement just plain disgusts me.

**edited to add: I apologize if I'm being uncivil, but your sentiment is one of the traits I despise most in my fellow humans.

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05-20-2004 02:27 AM

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Caffeine
Caffeine

Registered: Aug 2000
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quote:
Originally posted by ignatz mouse
Rokkr, are you really this much of a simpleton? do you really believe the question of how one classifies a human being, or a nation, over time, is really that black and white? do you truly lack all compassion, forgiveness and humanity?

your statement just plain disgusts me.

**edited to add: I apologize if I'm being uncivil, but your sentiment is one of the traits I despise most in my fellow humans.

Please keep such attacks in PDM. They have no place here.

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05-20-2004 02:32 AM

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zim
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Registered: Dec 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by Rokkr
Oh and in answer to the question in your first post.
If you stole a CD 15 years ago, yes you are still a thief today. You may be a repentant and reformed thief, but you are still a thief.
Does a murderer all of a sudden not become one when he repents his act?

quote:
Originally posted by ignatz mouse
Rokkr, are you really this much of a simpleton? do you really believe the question of how one classifies a human being, or a nation, over time, is really that black and white? do you truly lack all compassion, forgiveness and humanity?

your statement just plain disgusts me.

mister mouse, you're the one judging the person based on the label and the label alone. Yes, someone who stole a CD 15 years ago is still a thief. -- but that does not mean that he will steal again. That does not mean that he currently has a bad character.

You're the one judging, not Rokkr.

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ignatz mouse
Mistress of Tranquility

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I'm willing to accept that I made a judgment of Rokkr based on his statement of opinion. I also think the appellation of labels is problematic (and just plain wrong-headed), particularly if there is no hope for reprieve and no consideration of change over time. it's as much of a trap as not learning from history. and, I'm not a "mister".

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05-20-2004 02:58 AM

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Rokkr
Cwirky

Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Cwesting
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quote:
Originally posted by ignatz mouse
Rokkr, are you really this much of a simpleton? do you really believe the question of how one classifies a human being, or a nation, over time, is really that black and white? do you truly lack all compassion, forgiveness and humanity?

your statement just plain disgusts me.

**edited to add: I apologize if I'm being uncivil, but your sentiment is one of the traits I despise most in my fellow humans.

Once you've committed an act, it does make you something. It doesn't mean you'll repeat it, but time does not erase the act.

So let me understand. If you murdered someone year