Private Messages Options Search Blogs Images Chat Cam Portals Calendar FAQ's Join  
Asylum Forums : Powered by vBulletin version 2.2.8 Asylum Forums > Políticás der Monde > ACTS of the Apostles - Karl Marx Read the Holy Bible
  Last Thread   Next Thread
Author
Thread [new thread]    [post reply]
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

ACTS of the Apostles - Karl Marx Read the Holy Bible

hi, all,
this was orginally posted at http://www.spreadeagleranch.com on the ranch message forums...
i'm new here, so please be gentle with this thread, but i'm interested in intelligent feedback from Asylum members.


----------------------------------------------------------------


when he penned with Engels "The Communist Manifesto"

a quote such as, "From each according to his abilities, to each according to his needs" is very similiar to a reading from the ACTS of the APOSTLES...

listening to the Pastor (a Methodist Minister) on Sunday night was very interesting, when we discussed how the Bolshevik Communists acting on Lenin's attack of organized religion, especially, in Czarist Russia, tried to trick people in their following of Jesus on the basis that their needs weren't being met by either Jesus or the Czarist regime, which is where the Communists tried to become the proponents of an atheist God on Earth, elevating the State to the position as the source of God for the people...

wasn't it Lenin who said, "We'd march with the devil himself in order to defeat the Czar?"

insincere alliances to overcome oppression aren't based on the writings in the Holy Bible or very sincere for that matter, but a clue into how soul-less this world can be sometimes when man enters a war with his fellow man over the necessities of life...

Marx's theory for the working-class would be perfect, if it just considered the existence of God and wouldn't have been used to justify murder and death...

LENIN, STALIN, TROTSKY - http://www.marxists.org

i'm more interested in the observations of writers such as Robert Owen and Engels considering their belief in utopian socialist communities,,,

check out http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/IRowen.htm

the spirtual Communist ideal should be: "To each according to his/her abilities, to each according to his/her needs."

similiar to the reading from ACTS, which follows:

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

34 Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold,
sold Matt 19:21, Acts 2:45

35 And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.


---------------------------------------------------------------------------------


i really must check out the ASYLUM b/c i think this type of thread would cause debate

i wonder if reading Ayn Rand's philosophy would be helpful, as she was a proponent of acting in one's self-interest...

peace,
seth/john[/i]

_________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 01:02 AM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
squee
the amen break

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Interesting.

I recently learned about the existence of some kind of Christian Socialist movement in the UK but aside from hearing it mentioned in the same context as some of my favorite thinkers and authors (Chesterton, C.S. Lewis) I don't know anything about it. If I find anything out I'll be sure to PM you a link.

Here's some food for thought:
I'm reading Alan Dershowitz right now. He confirms a charge leveled against the Jews who worked for Lenin by modern historians (Russian Jews were disproportionately represented in the political class at the time) to the effect that these folks got tired of waiting for a messiah and decided to do his work themselves. I find this interesting because of what you said up there:

quote:
tried to trick people in their following of Jesus on the basis that their needs weren't being met by either Jesus or the Czarist regime, which is where the Communists tried to become the proponents of an atheist God on Earth, elevating the State to the position as the source of God for the people...
To the effect that "Your religion is not meeting your needs, but our State will..."

Well, Lenin eventually persecuted the Jews. They were also disproportionately represented in the Gulag Archipelago, if I'm not mistaken.

Just an interesting factoid, I guess.

__________________
What does polite society know of the secret hearts of men?
What shows the shuttered window but all the evil you can imagine?

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 01:10 AM
squee is offline Click Here to See the Profile for squee Click here to Send squee a Private Message Find more posts by squee Add squee to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
wonderaz
Sarky Bastard

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Sedona, Arizona
Posts: 18823

Is that line "does not meet you needs, but our..." not the most common of attempts to convert to Christianity?

Eh, sad that so many could be swayed by such blather. In the above cited case, little or nothing was really offered in this plane of existance.
How weak is the average man's faith? Pretty weak if one would trade so easily.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 01:22 AM
wonderaz is offline Click Here to See the Profile for wonderaz Click here to Send wonderaz a Private Message Visit wonderaz's homepage! Find more posts by wonderaz Add wonderaz to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35561

Talking of insincere aliances, Churchill once said something to the effect that if Hitler was against the devil that he would give the devil at least a favourable mention in the House of Commons. As it was, he and Roosevelt merely cuddled up to Stalin (and a good job too, the Russians did more to win the war against Germany than anyone else did).

Many christians are socialists or at least left-leaning, I'd say, Certainly, catholics are (even if they are socially conservative).

__________________
I want to live and I want to love
I want to catch something that I might be ashamed of

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 02:07 AM
Smug Git is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Smug Git Click here to Send Smug Git a Private Message Find more posts by Smug Git Add Smug Git to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

"Eh, sad that so many could be swayed by such blather. In the above cited case, little or nothing was really offered in this plane of existance.
How weak is the average man's faith? Pretty weak if one would trade so easily"

Yes, however; it was the Methodist Minister (originally from Korea) who said to me, when we spoke of Marx and Lenin, "How the Communists at the time of Lenin could sway the peasants, when the Communists attacked the Orthodox Church of Czarist Russia, by simply saying, "Where is Jesus now to meet your needs as you hunger and til the Earth."

we came to an agreement on the correctness of Lenin's polemic against the Orthodox Church of Czarist Russia and the colonial nature of Christainity dating all the way back to the Roman Empire...

if we would just read the Bible and follow some of its teaching we would all be better off in my opinion like the ACTS of the APOSTLES and understand the fraility of human nature.

the Catholic Worker web site is a good example of the Catholic Church doing the work it should under the guidance of Dorothy Day - check out their homepage at http://www.catholicworker.org/index.cfm

Never lose faith in Jesus Christ is my motto...

__________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Last edited by Seth_John on 12-08-2004 at 04:44 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 04:41 PM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
CHiPsJr
Ginger-headed Troll

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Kansas City
Posts: 7504

*stifles a Spacemonster reference*

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 05:30 PM
CHiPsJr is offline Click Here to See the Profile for CHiPsJr Click here to Send CHiPsJr a Private Message Find more posts by CHiPsJr Add CHiPsJr to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
SPACEMONSTER
WINS!

Registered: Oct 2004
Location: The American Midwest
Posts: 7

Karl Marx wasn't hilariously bad enough, so I give you Ayn Rand. Rand was my backup in case Lyndon Larouche completely lost it.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 06:52 PM
SPACEMONSTER is offline Click Here to See the Profile for SPACEMONSTER Click here to Send SPACEMONSTER a Private Message Find more posts by SPACEMONSTER Add SPACEMONSTER to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

Karl Marx
Betrand Russell
Machivelli (spelling?)

blah, blah, that what we were asked to read in my Western Political Thougt class a few years ago...

Ayn Rand is an interesting card, but if we all acted in our own self-interest that pre-supposes no need for government or structures that all societies, depending on the mode of productions, are built on today and in the past.

have we ever realized captalism or simply has its effects been reflected in writings such as Engels' "The Conditions of the English Working Class?" - penned at a time when modern industrial capitalism was taken hold in England...

http://www.marxists.org

structures are inherent in our modern society as well as when we read history...

__________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-08-2004 08:58 PM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

Re: ACTS of the Apostles - Karl Marx Read the Holy Bible

quote:
Originally posted by Seth_John
when he [Marx] penned with Engels "The Communist Manifesto"


he didn;t pen that drivel with Engels, Engels penned it and he by-lined it. Engels took The German Ideology and completely misrerepesnted it as a reveolutionary moevment in th ephysical sense via the Manifesto which was dumbed down basatrdised copy and bears fuck all resemblance to the actual philosophical tenets of historical materialism.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 06:41 AM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

Englels Speech at Marx's Burial

he didn;t pen that drivel with Engels, Engels penned it and he by-lined it. Engels took The German Ideology and completely misrerepesnted it as a reveolutionary moevment in th ephysical sense via the Manifesto which was dumbed down basatrdised copy and bears fuck all resemblance to the actual philosophical tenets of historical materialism.

------------------
the way in which the Communist Manifesto was presented in Western Political Thought class was that it was a colloboration between the two in which Marx and Engels worked together on the effort.

how did Engels misrepresent the German Ideology? a revolutionary movement can be found in any given time in history, both past and present..

most philosophy studentsw see Marxism as too deterministic and not able to adapt to the fluidity of new historic epochs...

however this quote seems to refute that claim, "Just as Darwin discovered the law of development or organic nature, so Marx discovered the law of development of human history: the simple fact, hitherto concealed by an overgrowth of ideology, that mankind must first of all eat, drink, have shelter and clothing, before it can pursue politics, science, art, religion, etc.; that therefore the production of the immediate material means, and consequently the degree of economic development attained by a given people or during a given epoch, form the foundation upon which the state institutions, the legal conceptions, art, and even the ideas on religion, of the people concerned have been evolved, and in the light of which they must, therefore, be explained, instead of vice versa, as had hitherto been the case.

But that is not all. Marx also discovered the special law of motion governing the present-day capitalist mode of production, and the bourgeois society that this mode of production has created. The discovery of surplus value suddenly threw light on the problem, in trying to solve which all previous investigations, of both bourgeois economists and socialist critics, had been groping in the dark."

the misrepresenation starts with Lenin, not Marx or Engels...


THE DEATH OF KARL MARX

Frederick Engels’ Speech at the Grave of Karl Marx
Highgate Cemetery, London. March 17, 1883

click on http://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...eath/burial.htm

__________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Last edited by Seth_John on 12-09-2004 at 07:40 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 07:36 PM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Mugtoe
Cuddly Puppy

Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 17889

I stood on Spencer to take this in a pouring rain.




Phil schooled me on Marx, but he simultaneously sabotaged my comprehension. I think that was part of his plan for world domination.

__________________

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 07:57 PM
Mugtoe is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Mugtoe Click here to Send Mugtoe a Private Message Find more posts by Mugtoe Add Mugtoe to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

Re: Englels Speech at Marx's Burial

quote:
Originally posted by Seth_John
how did Engels misrepresent the German Ideology..... the misrepresenation starts with Lenin


Quite simply through the misintepretation of the term "revolution" as it appears throughout The German Ideology. Marx's critique in that text is his most extensive on the materialistic dialetic and the foundational tenets of his social theory of history. What becomes strikingly apparent when read is that when Marx refers to "revolution", he is not referring to a consciously orchestrated act by a politically motivated group. He is merely referring to a social phenomenon which results in a change to the mode the production of a given society by virtue of the dialetic tensions between the means and ownership of that production. What is key to each change he observed in history was consent. Engels, and all those that followed have been wrong not because the end was necessarily somehow unjust, but instead were wrong because they all ignored the essential fact that Marx was a democrat. Ironically it even led Marx himself to label them as "unthinking communists". The misrepresentation did not begin with Lenin, it began with Engels and the rest of the groupies (Lenin included) who simply did not understand their hero.

Last edited by philjit on 12-09-2004 at 08:46 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 08:04 PM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe
Phil schooled me on Marx, but he simultaneously sabotaged my comprehension. I think that was part of his plan for world domination.


hah! I enlightened you to the reality of the most influential thinker of the 20th Century (shame all the people he influenced didn't understand him though).

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 08:06 PM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Mugtoe
Cuddly Puppy

Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 17889

Lenin didn't believe in the need for a consensual society when he had a vanguard elite to bring about change from the top down.

__________________

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 08:35 PM
Mugtoe is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Mugtoe Click here to Send Mugtoe a Private Message Find more posts by Mugtoe Add Mugtoe to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
philjit
Arch-Enemy of Idealism

Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe
Lenin didn't believe in the need for a consensual society when he had a vanguard elite to bring about change from the top down.


agreed... I hope it didn't come across like I was suggesting he did. Had Marx been alive then he would not have had a good word to say for Lenin.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-09-2004 08:45 PM
philjit is offline Click Here to See the Profile for philjit Click here to Send philjit a Private Message Find more posts by philjit Add philjit to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

however, Lenin, Engels and Marx included use "The Paris Commune of 1871" for their own ends in pushing forward the idea of the proletariat overcoming their rulers, however still, Marx and anarchists do consider "the Paris Commune of 1871" a shakey start for the working class during "the Civil War in France"

http://www.marxists.org/archive/mar...france/ch05.htm

the vanguard party elite concept and Lenin's strategical writing of "The State and Revolution" produced the inspiration for deformed workers' states around the world, which still exist in China and North Korea, where the Communist Parties haven't succeeded in withering away the State.

Lenin's "The State and Revolution" does not hold up to today in countries such as the US, because "the State and Revolution along with "What Is To Be Done?" doesn't offer the working-class a practical means to overthrowing their oppressors and also

Lenin considered the US to be the most democratic of all republics, however; Lenin also sumarised that the US was/and still is where the largest concentration of monopoly capitalism exists.

Lenin brutalized "democracy" as only a step in the direction of the working-class realizing its potential and of course Lenin promoted the idea of the party as the vanguard elite in bringing about the Russian Revolution, however; i still have great pains accepting that voting once every four years is playing a role in democracy, especially for representatives of the ruling class.

Lenin along with Trotsky held strong to the idea of internationalism as bringing about solidarity for the international working-class in nations such as the US, England and Germany after World War One - read about Eugene V. Debs, etc.

i prefer examples such as the utopian Socialist communities promoted by thinkers such as Robert Owen some of his writings kind be found at http://www.marxists.org/reference/s.../owen/index.htm

Robert Owen's writings were used by Engels as well.

__________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Last edited by Seth_John on 12-10-2004 at 07:26 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-10-2004 03:11 PM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

"Quite simply through the misintepretation of the term "revolution" as it appears throughout The German Ideology. Marx's critique in that text is his most extensive on the materialistic dialetic and the foundational tenets of his social theory of history. What becomes strikingly apparent when read is that when Marx refers to "revolution", he is not referring to a consciously orchestrated act by a politically motivated group. He is merely referring to a social phenomenon which results in a change to the mode the production of a given society by virtue of the dialetic tensions between the means and ownership of that production. What is key to each change he observed in history was consent. Engels, and all those that followed have been wrong not because the end was necessarily somehow unjust, but instead were wrong because they all ignored the essential fact that Marx was a democrat. Ironically it even led Marx himself to label them as "unthinking communists". The misrepresentation did not begin with Lenin, it began with Engels and the rest of the groupies (Lenin included) who simply did not understand their hero"

the dialetic and class tensions still exist even today with all the industrial/technological and means of production changes that have come and gone since the time of Marx's writings, which makes

there exist today dialectical materialists who consider Lenin's writings to be the next step in actualizing Marx's world view through a political party formation, however; one can't be so deterministic when bringing about change in a materialistic world/society such as what Pearl Jam bassist Jeff Ament sang about social change in "Undone"

"The world has come undone.
Another day and who can wait.
Change don't come at once.
It's a wave building before it breaks.

All this hope and nowhere to go.
This is how I used to feel but no more.

The world has come undone.
Like a game that you can play.
Change don't come from one.
It's a wave building before it breaks"

i enjoyed reading this piece on utopian versus scientific socialism in Workers World newspaper...

Socialism: from utopian to scientific
By Gene Clancy

Just off Interstate 64 in southwestern Indiana, near the Wabash River, is a small town of about 1,000 people called New Harmony. It is located in the "heartland" on the northern edge of the "Bible Belt." It has, for a long time, been considered a cultural center in a largely agricultural region.

New Harmony represents a milestone in the evolution of socialist thought. It retains practical political significance, even today. Nearly 175 years ago, when it was still a frontier town, an attempt was made to build a communist society there.

Many similar ventures were made at the time, both in the United States and in other countries. New Harmony is notable because it was organized and inspired by one of the truly great figures of the 19th century: Robert Owen.

Conventional historical writing in the United States is very big on "great men," par ticularly straight white men. However, you would be hard put to find much mention of Robert Owen in public-school textbooks, except as a footnote. And that footnote would almost certainly try to show how mistaken, wrongheaded and, of course, unsuccessful Owen's experiment at New Harmony was. But let's look at a few facts.

From 1825 to 1827, New Harmony attracted many of the most idealistic and inventive reformers of the day, as well as women and men of the natural sciences. In addition, many jobless people found their way there, inspired by public lectures Owen gave in many Eastern cities.

The principles of the community were as follow: "Within the community all work was to be equal. One was to receive that which was necessary to him or her. The teacher's work was to be on the same footing with the laborer, the farmer the equal of either. All were to perform to the best of their ability and receive the same compensation." (Don Blair, "The New Harmony Story")

In its few short years of existence, the communist society at New Harmony introduced into the United States the first kindergarten, the first infant school, the first trade school, the first free public school system, the first women's club, the first free library and the first civic dramatic club. It was also the seat of the first geological survey.

These are remarkable achievements. They are even more remarkable when viewed against the historical backdrop.

Half of the United States at that time was under slavery: Slavery and racism had been enshrined in the U.S. Constitution. Nowhere did women have the right to vote, or any legal rights at all. The Indian Remo val Act was soon to be passed, breaking solemn treaties and forcing most Native nations west of the Mississippi, where they would again be assaulted. Labor unions were outlawed. Anti-immigrant political parties attacked the mainly Irish and Ger man immigrants who made up the bulk of factory workers in some cities. Social services and even such institutions as municipal fire departments were non-existent.

The progressive achievements of this little utopian colony became the basis for important demands later taken up by the working class movement. What was considered utopian at that time has now become very practical and indeed necessary.

To the extent that such social services are today more generally available to the workers, it is owing to bitter class battles across the country. And many are now under attack again.

What made it utopian

Long after it ceased to be a communist colony, New Harmony was a social and cultural oasis. It was to become a center of both the abolitionist and women's movements.

Why did it disintegrate? The common explanation given by bourgeois critics at the time and ever since is that these early communist experiments failed to reward personal incentive, that equality is fine in theory but unworkable in practice. Of course, "rewarding personal initiative" is just a substitute phrase for profit.

Actually, the most important reason for the failure was that it was in competition with the capitalist mode of production and dependent upon it for the purchase and sale of materials. Owen had based his conception of communism on the view that the success of his colonies would enlist the cooperation of the capitalists, who would join in when they saw how superior those societies were.

He and the other great utopians, like Claude Henri Saint-Simon and Charles Fourier, overlooked the characteristic feature of the capitalists: their unlimited greed driven by the profit motive. Not only does that prevent their conversion to the idea of a utopian society, but they cannot be persuaded to grant the workers even the most meager demands without a struggle.

One of Owen's contemporaries descri bed the profit motive this way:

"With adequate profit, capital is very bold. A certain 10 percent will ensure it employment anywhere; 20 percent certain will produce eagerness; 50 percent, positive audacity; 100 percent will make it ready to trample all human laws; 300 percent, and there is not a crime at which it will scruple, nor a risk it will not run, even to the chance of its owner being hanged. If turbulence and strife will bring a profit, it will freely encourage both. Smuggling and the slave trade have amply proved all that is here stated." (T.J. Dunning, as quoted by Karl Marx in "Capital")

In his book "Socialism: Utopian and Scientific," Frederick Engels, the co-worker of Karl Marx, described the personal price which Robert Owen paid for his utopian ideals.

"His advance in the direction of Com munism was the turning point in Owen's life. As long as he was simply a philanthropist, he was rewarded with nothing but wealth, applause, honor and glory. He was the most popular man in Europe. Not only men of his own class, but statesmen and princes listened to him approvingly. But when he came out with his Commu nist theories, that was quite another thing. ...

"Banished from official society, with a conspiracy of silence against him in the press, ruined by his unsuccessful Com munist experiments in America, in which he sacrificed all his fortune, he turned directly to the working class and continued working in their midst for 30 years."

Appealing to the inherent goodness of the capitalists is an exercise in futility. But the utopian socialists cannot really be blamed. At the time that they began to develop their ideas, said Engels, "the capitalist mode of production, and with it the antagonism between the bourgeoisie and the proletariat, was still very incompletely developed."

To the utopians, communism was a logical outgrowth of the defining event of the 18th century: the French Revolution, the most thoroughgoing social upheaval that had ever been seen. Through this revolution capitalism had gained the upper hand over feudalism in Europe. At the time that Owen, Saint-Simon and Fourier began to write and organize--about 1800--the bourgeoisie was still locked in a relentless battle against the old feudal ruling classes.

In this battle, the new capitalist class claimed to be struggling for the emancipation of all oppressed classes, so as to enlist them as allies. The ideological basis for the French Revolution was what is sometimes called the Age of Reason, the Enlight enment. The philosophers and writers of the 18th century believed that all human problems could be solved by reason. They thought that a rational government, a rational society could and should be founded as though from a blueprint; everything that ran counter to eternal reason was to be remorselessly done away with.

However, even by the early 1800s, it was obvious to the utopian reformers that the new society was far from rational. Engels wrote:

"The development of industry upon a capitalistic basis made poverty and misery of the working masses conditions of existence of society. Cash payment became more and more ... the sole nexus between man and man. The number of crimes increased from year to year.

"Formerly, the feudal vices had openly stalked about in broad daylight; though not eradicated, they were now at any rate thrust into the background. In their stead, the bourgeois vices, hitherto practiced in secret, began to blossom all the more luxuriantly.

"Trade became to a greater and greater extent cheating. The 'fraternity' of the revolutionary motto was realized in the chicanery and rivalries of the battle of competition. Oppression by force was replaced by corruption. ... Prostitution increased to an extent never heard of. Marriage itself remained, as before, the legally recognized form, the official cloak of prostitution, and, moreover, was supplemented by rich crops of adultery."

The utopian socialists recognized that the new bourgeois world was irrational and unjust, but they did not recognize fully that this was the outgrowth of historical and economic forces. They believed, said Engels: "If pure reason and justice have not hitherto ruled the world this has been the case only because men have not rightly understood them. What was wanted was the individual man of genius, who has now arisen and who understands the truth."

Ruined by capitalist world market

Sam Marcy, writing on "Soviet Social ism: Utopian or Scientific?" (Workers World, Jan. 30, 1992), noted: "Above all, Owen and the other utopian socialists could not foresee the emerging anarchy of capitalist production. ... Owen started his first cooperative venture in 1800 at New Lanarck [in Scotland]. By 1825, when he tried to develop New Harmony as an island of cooperation in a world torn asunder by class antagonisms, the first worldwide capitalist crisis was under way."

Although short-lived, it was universal in character. It vitally affected New Har mony, because no community can stand alone in the face of such great devastation.

"The destructive force unleashed by the periodic paroxysms of capitalist crisis would not allow even a tiny oasis to carry out the systematic planning needed to build his egalitarian society," wrote Marcy. "Indeed, these cooperative ventures with their more limited resources are among the first to be swept away, as later history was to show. Many of the cooperative enterprises, built up by years of hard work and self-sacrifice, fell victim to the crises the capitalist mode of production inevitably brings. These crises eventually can sweep away even the largest of corporations and banks."

By the time Marx and Engels wrote "The Communist Manifesto" in 1848, the bourgeoisie had revealed all its basic social and political tendencies. Using the philosophy of Hegel and the scientific method of analysis, they determined that socialism was not the expression of some absolute truth, which had only to be discovered in order to conquer all the world by virtue of its own power. It was not independent of time, space and of the historical development of humanity.

Marx and Engels, and their successors, were able to see what was not clear to the utopians: that people "make their own history, but they do not make it just as they please; they do not make it under circumstances chosen by themselves, but under circumstances directly encountered, given and transmitted from the past." (Karl Marx, "The Eighteenth Brumaire of Louis Bonaparte")

One of the most important discoveries of Marx and Engels was that the mainspring of history is the class struggle. Moreover, they identified the new industrial proletariat, which was just then coming into being, as the class that is at the same time indispensable and yet most antagonistic to the capitalist class. Many progressive reformers, including the utopian socialists, had empathized with the working class and sincerely wanted to change the terrible conditions it was forced to endure. However, their attitude was generally paternalistic.

To Marx and Engels the working class was not merely an object of pity but was the revolutionary agent that, in its struggle to emancipate itself, would free all of humanity from class oppression.

But first the working class has to free itself.

Once they had identified the workers as the revolutionary class, Marx and Engels put themselves at the service of that class and its emancipation. In so doing they provided us with one of our most important weapons: a revolutionary theory and a guide to action.


Reprinted from the Nov. 18, 2004, issue of Workers World newspaper
This article is copyright under a Creative Commons License.
Workers World, 55 W. 17 St., NY, NY 10011
Email: ww@workers.org
Subscribe wwnews-subscribe@workersworld.net
Support independent news http://www.workers.org/orders/donate.php)
HOME | NEWS | SEARCH | SUBSCRIBE | WWP | SUPPORT WW

__________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-10-2004 03:22 PM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list [P] Edit/Delete Message Reply w/Quote
Seth_John
a Marxist Catholic

Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

i'm also interested in the writings of Hegel...

lastly,

"What is key to each change he observed in history was consent. Engels, and all those that followed have been wrong not because the end was necessarily somehow unjust, but instead were wrong because they all ignored the essential fact that Marx was a democrat. Ironically it even led Marx himself to label them as "unthinking communists". The misrepresentation did not begin with Lenin, it began with Engels and the rest of the groupies (Lenin included) who simply did not understand their hero." - Phil

Marx was also quoted as saying, "Je ne suis pas, Marxiste" when living in France.

i love Howard Zinn's Marx in Soho: A Play on History - http://www.southendpress.org/books/zinnmarx.shtml


Marx also praised the idealists/Founding Fathers of the early US republic, however; a consensual democratic society is relative, however; it's probably been best realized in the US, meaning that we consent to the decisions made by our elected representatives and officials, but i wonder how much power monopoly capitalism on Wall Street and Halliburton have over the general and state elections in the US.

we are a consitutional republic and the Leninist party operates on the basis of democratic centralism run by the party.

a consenual society with no hierarchy ruling from above has it ever been realized and can a revolution be brought to realization without an elite vanguard political party?

i've enjoyed working with non-hierarchic groupings that take direct political action against corporations who hold powers over consumers.

i resigned from the Workers World Party, USA, (http://www.workers.org) on the basis that i was tired of working within the framework of a Marxist-Leninist party formation...

__________________
“with each broken shoelace out of one hundred broken shoelaces, one man, one woman, one thing enters a madhouse” - Charles Bukowski

Last edited by Seth_John on 12-10-2004 at 07:40 PM

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Old Post 12-10-2004 07:27 PM
Seth_John is offline Click Here to See the Profile for Seth_John Click here to Send Seth_John a Private Message Visit Seth_John's homepage! Find more posts by Seth_John Add Seth_John to your buddy list