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mmmtravis
T-Raz w/ the freaky freak

Registered: May 2002
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This is Reason Speaking

Forgive the long-winded introductory quote, but its relevancy and eloquence surely surpass my own statements on the subject.

quote:
An excerpt from Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand
"I am the man who loves his life. I am the man who does not sacrifice his love or his values. I am the man who has deprived you of victims and thus has destroyed your world, and if you wish to know why you are perishing--you who dread knowledge--I am the man who will now tell you.

You have heard it said that this is an age of moral crisis. You have said it yourself, half in fear, half in hope that the words had no meaning. You have cried that man's sins are destroying the world and you have cursed human nature for its unwillingness to practice the virtues you demanded. Since virtue, to you, consists of sacrifice, you have demanded more sacrifices at every successive disaster. In the name of a return to morality, you have sacrificed all those evils which you held as the cause of your plight. You have sacrificed justice to mercy. You have sacrificed independence to unity. You have sacrificed reason to faith. You have sacrificed wealth to need. You have sacrificed self-esteem to self-denial. You have sacrificed happiness to duty.

You have destroyed all that which you held to be evil and achieved all that which you held to be good. Why, then do you shrink in horror from the sight of the world around you? That world is not the product of your sins, it is the product and the image of your virtues. It is your moral ideal brought into reality in its full and final perfection. You have fought for it, you have dreamed of it, and you have wished it, and I -- I am the man who has granted you your wish.

Your ideal had an implacable enemy, which your code of morality was designed to destroy. I have withdrawn that enemy. I have taken it out of your way and out of your reach. I have removed the source of all those evils you were sacrificing one by one. I have ended your battle. I have stopped your motor. I have deprived your world of man's mind.

Men do not live by the mind, you say? I have withdrawn those who do. The mind is impotent, you say? I have withdrawn those whose mind isn't. There are higher values than the mind, you say? I have withdrawn those for whom there aren't.

While you were dragging to your sacrificial altars the men of justice, of reason, of independence, of wealth, of self-esteem -- I beat you to it, I reached them first. I told them the nature of the game you were playing and the nature of the moral code of yours, which they had been too innocently generous to grasp. I showed them the way to live by another morality -- mine. It is mine that they chose to follow.

All the men who have vanished, the men you hated, yet dreaded to lose, it is I who have taken them away from you. Do not attempt to find us. We do not choose to be found. Do not cry that it is our duty to serve you. We do not recognize such duty. Do not cry that you own us. You don't. Do not beg us to return. We are on strike, we, the men of the mind.

We are on strike against self-immolation. We are on strike against the creed of unearned rewards and unrewarded duties. We are on strike against the dogma that the pursuit of one's happiness is evil. We are on strike against the doctrine that life is guilt.

There is a difference between our strike and all those you've practiced for centuries: our strike consists, not of making demands, but of granting them. We are evil according to your morality. We have chosen not to harm you any longer. We are useless, according to your economics. We have chosen not to exploit you any longer. We are dangerous and to be shackled, according to your politics. We have chosen not to endanger you, nor to wear the shackles any longer. We are only an illusion, according to your philosophy. We have chosen not to blind you any longer and have left you free to face reality--the reality you wanted, the world as you see it now, a world without mind.

We have granted you everything you demanded of us, we who had always been the givers, but have only now understood it. We have no demands to present to you, no terms of bargain about, no compromise to reach. You have nothing to offer us. WE DO NOT NEED YOU.

Are you crying: No, this was not what you wanted? A mindless world of ruins was not your goal? You did not want us to leave you? You moral cannibals, I know that you've always known what it was that you wanted. But your game is up, because now we know it too.
Through centuries of scourges and disasters, brought about by your code of morality, you have cried that your code had been broken, that the scourges were punishment for breaking it, that men were too weak and too selfish to spill all the blood it required. You damned man, you damned existence, you damned this earth, but never dared to question your code. Your victims took the blame and struggled on, with your curses as rewards for their martyrdom--while you went on crying that your code was noble, but human nature was not good enough to practice it. And no one rose to ask the question: Good?--by what standard?

You wanted to know John Galt's identity. I am the man who has asked that question.

Yes, this is an age of moral crisis. Yes, you are bearing punishment for your evil. But it is not man who is now on trial and it is not human nature that will take the blame. It is your moral code that's through, this time. Your moral code has reached its climax, the blind alley at the end of its course. And if you wish to go on living, what you now need is not to return to morality--you who have know any--but to discover it.

You have heard no concepts of morality but the mystical or the social. You have been taught that morality is a code of behavior imposed on you by whim, the whim of a supernatural power or the whim of society, to serve God's purpose or your neighbor's welfare, to please an authority beyond the grave or else next door--but not to serve your life or pleasure. Your pleasure you have been taught is to be found in immortality, your interests would best be served by evil, and any moral code must be designed not for you, but against you, not to further your life, but to drain it.

For centuries, the battle of morality was fought between those who claimed that it belongs to your neighbors--between those who preached that the good is self-sacrifice for the sake of ghosts in heaven and those who preached that the good is self-sacrifice for the sake of incompetents on earth. And no one came to say that your life belongs to you and that the good is to live it.

Both sides agreed that morality demands the surrender of your self-interest and of your mind, that the moral and the practical are opposites, that morality is not the province of reason, but the province of faith and force. Both side agreed that no rational morality is possible, that there is no right or wrong in reason--that in reason there's no reason to be moral. Whatever else they fought about, it was against man's mind that all your moralists have stood united. It was mind that all their schemes and systems were intended to despoil and destroy. Now choose to perish or to learn that the anti-mind is the anti-life.
Man's mind is his basic tool of survival. Life is given to him, survival is not. His body is given to him sustenance is not. His mind is given to him, its content is not. To remain alive, he must act, and before he can act he must know the nature and purpose of his action. He cannot obtain his food without a knowledge of food and of the way to obtain it. He cannot dig a ditch--or build a cyclotron--without a knowledge of his aim and of the means to achieve it. To remain alive, he must think.

But to think is an act of choice. The key to what you so recklessly call 'human nature,' the open secret you live with, yet dread to name, is the fact that man is a being of volitional consciousness. Reason does not work automatically; thinking is not a mechanical process; the connections of logic are not made by instinct. The function of your stomach, lungs, or heart is automatic; the function of your mind is not. In any hour and issue of your life , you are free to escape from that for you, who are a human being, the question 'to be or not to be' is the question 'to think or not to think'.

A being of volitional consciousness has no automatic course of behavior. He needs a code of values to guide his actions. 'Value' is that which one acts to gain and keep, 'virtue' is the action by which one gains and keeps it. 'Value' presupposes an answer to the question: of value to whom and for what? 'Value' presupposes a standard, a purpose and the necessity of action in the face of an alternative. Where there are no alternatives, no values are possible.

There is only one fundamental alternative in the universe: existence or non-existence--and it pertains to a single class of entities: living organisms. The existence of inanimate matter is unconditional, the existence of life is not; it depends on a specific course of action. Matter is indestructible, it changes its forms, but it cannot cease to exist. It is only a living organism that faces a constant alternative: the issue of life or death. Life is a process of self-sustaining and self-generating action. If an organism fails in that action, it does; its chemical elements remain, but its life goes out of existence. It is only the concept of 'Life' that makes the concept of 'Value' possible. It is only to a living entity that things can be good or evil.

A plant must feed itself in order to live; the sunlight, the water, the chemicals it needs are the values its nature has set it to pursue; its life is the standard of value directing its actions. Bur a plant has no choice of action; there are alternatives in the conditions it encounters, but there is no alternative in its function: it acts automatically to further its life, it cannot act for its own destruction."


As a man who takes the task of formulating action logically (instead of emotionally) very seriously, I’m really fucking frustrated.

According to last month's Gallup, this is the United States of America I live in (emphasis created by me):

quote:
Only about a third of Americans believe that Charles Darwin's theory of evolution is a scientific theory that has been well supported by the evidence, while just as many say that it is just one of many theories and has not been supported by the evidence.
what
Forty-five percent of Americans also believe that God created human beings pretty much in their present form about 10,000 years ago.
the
A third of Americans are biblical literalists who believe that the Bible is the actual word of God and is to be taken literally, word for word.
fuck?



As politically incorrect as my statements might be, these people are fucking idiots. The absurdity of dismissing empirical laws because they threaten to contradict their support group which demands "Thou shalt have no other gods before me" can not be overstated! As I'm trying to maintain a civil discussion (in order to keep this thread in PDM), I'll refrain from further articulations on their idiocy while maintaining that their corwardly stances continue to erode our world.

I do not particularly enjoy living amongst persons incapable of comprehending the relationship between cause and effect, I do not want to interact with individuals who behave as if feelings trump reason, I certainly do not wish to be governed by those consistently trying to derive an “ought” from an “is.”

The perceived incentives for abdicating reason are not beyond me—it is simply easier to avoid complex thought—but I feel no sympathy for those who willfully embrace ignorance, expecting the world can be reformed to their own perverse reductions of it.

Perhaps one day someone (a bit more charismatic than I) will deliver Rand’s speech to the world, maybe humanity doesn’t have to reach that critical threshold. Education is paramount. While I sympathize with the libertarian notions tending to discourage governmental sustenance for public education, what is the alternative? Our society is hopelessly intertwined, there is no mountain hideout waiting to be colonized by the elite. My fate is dependant upon yourdecisions, so now what? Are my only options to indoctrinate those around me, enlighten them to the benefits of employing one’s own mind (a contradiction in terms) or to disappear into my own Atlantis?

This post was partially inspired by the intelligent design thread, but instead of derailing that discussion further, I wanted help in determining exactly “what to do” about the current situation.

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Old Post 12-17-2004 09:32 AM
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mudded
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come to western europe.
seemingly the only place on earth that is getting increasingly secular.

When the bible thumpers grow strong enough to assert themselves in US academia, replacing darwinian theory, first with ID, then wholesale creationism... it will begin the downward spiral that will drain the intellectual lifeblood away from the states.

And when all branches of academia become subservient to theology... the kingdom of "the just" will become a self-fulfilling prophesy.

By that time, the EU will hopefully have grown strong enough militarily to be able to have enough deterrents to remain safe.

Oh, and by the way. I didn't appreciate the Rand quote all that much.
"Thinking" (I guess he means "using reason") is not a binary process that is either there in full force or completely absent.

There are several ways out of a maze... some are just more direct than others.

Cheers
-m

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Old Post 12-17-2004 09:59 AM
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billgerat
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Good thing you pointed out in the thread title that Reason was speaking here, otherwise I would have guessed that it was Long Windedness speaking.

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Old Post 12-17-2004 02:16 PM
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Smug Git
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Jesus wept. The Rand exert is horrible (I might write some thoughts on it later, but am about to go out) but the Gallup poll, if true, is unbelievable. I mean, really: 'Forty-five percent of Americans also believe that God created human beings pretty much in their present form about 10,000 years ago' is pretty much unbelievable to me.

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J.Stevens
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Darwinian theories are often used by people like David Duke to justify their views.

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Old Post 12-17-2004 03:24 PM
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tessellated
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quote:
Originally posted by J.Stevens
Darwinian theories are often used by people like David Duke to justify their views.


Oh for cyring out loud, and people all throughout history have perverted religion of every stripe to promote death and destruction to their own benefit.

What's your point? That idiot's everywhere will pervert an idea to their own end? Duh. The best defense against that is to educate oneself as to the meaning of the idea rather than allowing one's ignorance to make one vulnerable to the David Duke's of the world.

Amazing science fact: there is more variation between two individual humans than there is between any two groups of humans.

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Old Post 12-17-2004 04:01 PM
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Smug Git
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I went to a lecture by Steve Jones (geneticist at UCL) and he said that 85% of the difference between two human beings from different races and continents was just due to them being different people (so, the same sorts of difference that I and someone, from the same area and race as me, would have) 7.5% was racial and 7.5% was regional. Of course, that doesn't mean that the 7.5% might not be utterly crucial, but it puts the onus on the racio-genetic supremacists to actually identify these crucial genes that make one race better than another.

If someone like David Duke uses a genetico-evolutionary argument to bolster his beliefs, then it just makes him a fucking moron (and also those people who believe that he is onto something are fucking morons). It doesn't say anything about evolution theory.

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Coincidence
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quote:
Originally posted by mudded
Oh, and by the way. I didn't appreciate the Rand quote all that much.
"Thinking" (I guess he means "using reason") is not a binary process that is either there in full force or completely absent.

There are several ways out of a maze... some are just more direct than others.


I'm not sure what you mean here. Apart from this interpretation of his reason (and the two last paragraphes which were a bit weird), I though it was an excellent way of formulating the problems with dogma.

If you are saying that religious people might create succesful and happy societies, I agree (they just need their own separate zones), but this seems pretty irrelevant in travis' case.

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The third three hours God feeds the entire world... the fourth three hour period God plays with the Leviathan"

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ignatz mouse
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quote:
Originally posted by mudded
Oh, and by the way. I didn't appreciate the Rand quote all that much.
"Thinking" (I guess he means "using reason") is not a binary process that is either there in full force or completely absent.

Cheers
-m



quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
I'm not sure what you mean here. Apart from this interpretation of his reason (and the two last paragraphes which were a bit weird), I though it was an excellent way of formulating the problems with dogma.



since when is Ayn Rand a man? she must have had a sex-change I wasn't aware of.

http://www.ayn-rand.com/ayn-rand-bio.asp

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Old Post 12-17-2004 06:35 PM
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Rokkr
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Thanks for reminding me why I hate reading Ayn Rand.

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Coincidence
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quote:
Originally posted by ignatz mouse
since when is Ayn Rand a man? she must have had a sex-change I wasn't aware of.


Male chauvinism made me an ignorant.

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"Rav Yehuda says, there are twelve hours in a day. The first three hours God sits and learns the Torah, the second three hours he sits and judges the world.
The third three hours God feeds the entire world... the fourth three hour period God plays with the Leviathan"

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Old Post 12-17-2004 07:04 PM
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Smug Git
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Assuming that stuff had to be written by a man is a compliment to women, I'd say.

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memdink
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Because average women are smarter than that?

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Old Post 12-17-2004 08:16 PM
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Smug Git
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That would be the implied assumption, yeah.

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Old Post 12-17-2004 08:17 PM
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memdink
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http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cp...ookdisclaimers/

Excellent quick read type stuff on evolution and responses to creationist diarhea.

http://evolution.berkeley.edu

http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cp...ckononsense.pdf

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Old Post 12-17-2004 08:20 PM
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Smug Git
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Heh. The whole 'theory not fact' line of attack is utterly incomprehensible to me. Are those people really so fucking ill-educated that they don't understand how science works? What the fuck do they even mean by 'fact'? Morons.

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memdink
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Speaking of defining 'theory' I had a conversation about creationism with a friend and avid student of science not to long ago and she had a pretty good run down of the word.

quote:

[some]thing to consider is the fact that those who believe in theocracy or in other words "creationism".
Creationism is not even considered a theory because it is based on the introduction of supernatural phenomena that cannot be observed with consistency The word "theory" is quite an ambiguous word that is taken out of context especially when one does not really understand science. In science the word theory is pretty much a solid proposition of what has been hypothsized not just mere speculation, which is what most people believe the word to mean. Basically theory is more than a hypothesis, but less than a law, because it is based on the confirmation of independent experiments regarding the hypothesis. A law is unchangeable, however, a theory can be modified based on other observations, but the fundamental basis of the theory never changes. This is where the misconception arises and people say "it cannot be true because it's just a theory".

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Old Post 12-17-2004 08:27 PM
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memdink
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Hoe Lee Crap

quote:
Why I believe in Creation

_____________________
Posted: December 17, 2004
1:00 a.m. Eastern


© 2004 WorldNetDaily.com



I was stunned the other day when I asked evolution-believing listeners to my nationally syndicated radio show to call in and tell me why they believed.

"Just give me one reason why you accept the theory," I said. "Just give me the strongest argument. You don't have to give me mountains of evidence. Just tell me why I should accept it."

Not one evolutionist called in.

Meanwhile, the phone banks lit up with dozens of evolution skeptics.

Go figure. For more than 40 years, evolution has been taught as fact in government schools to generations of children, yet there is still widespread skepticism, if not cynicism, about the theory across the country.


But, because of political correctness and the fear of ostracism, most people are afraid to admit what they believe about our origins. That's why I wrote my last column – "I believe in Creation."

The reaction to it has been unprecedented. While I expected mostly negative fallout, most letters have been quite positive.

So, I decided to take this issue a step further. Since the evolutionists don't want to tell me why they believe in their theory, I figured I would explain why I believe in mine.

The primary reason I believe, of course, is because the Bible tells me so. That's good enough for me, because I haven't found the Bible to be wrong about anything else.

But what about the worldly evidence?

The evolutionists insist the dinosaurs lived millions and millions of years ago and became extinct long before man walked the planet.

I don't believe that for a minute. I don't believe there is a shred of scientific evidence to suggest it. I am 100 percent certain man and dinosaurs walked the earth at the same time. In fact, I'm not at all sure dinosaurs are even extinct!

Think of all the world's legends about dragons. Look at those images. What were those folks seeing? They were clearly seeing dinosaurs. You can see them etched in cave drawings. You can see them in ancient literature. You can see them described in the Bible. You can see them in virtually every culture in every corner of the world.

Did the human race have a collective common nightmare? Or did these people actually see dragons? I believe they saw dragons – what we now call dinosaurs.

Furthermore, many of the dinosaur fossils discovered in various parts of the world were found right along human footprints and remains. How did that happen?

And what about the not-so-unusual sightings of contemporary sea monsters? Some of them have actually been captured.

There are also countless contemporary sightings of what appear to be pterodactyls in Asia and Africa.

You know what I think? I think we've been sold a bill of goods about the dinosaurs. I don't believe they died off millions and millions of years ago. In fact, I'm not at all convinced they've died off completely.

Evolutionists have put the cart before the horse. They start out with a theory, then ignore all the facts that contradict the theory. Any observation that might call into question their assumptions is discounted, ridiculed and covered up. That's not science.

How could all the thousands of historical records of dragons and behemoths throughout mankind's time on earth be ignored? Let's admit it. At least some of these observations and records indicate dinosaurs were walking the earth fairly recently – if not still walking it today.

If I'm right about that – which I am – then the whole evolutionary house of cards comes tumbling down.

This is the evidence about which the evolutionists dare not speak.

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Old Post 12-17-2004 09:16 PM
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Smug Git
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It's just a long way of saying 'only utter cretins listen to my show'.

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mudded
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quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence > re Ignatz
Male chauvinism made me an ignorant.


yep, I'll order one of these too.

and on the reason thing, S he does present "thinkers" as a small blessed group of chosen people. it seems that her alternative is only different in form, not content.

so the cure for religious dogma is quasi-religious dogma?

schweet holier than thou attitudes, Batman!

Cheers
-m

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He took a big bite
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