Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

first, happy holidays

how to start a discussion on this topic is tricky, but i'll try considering the open environment in which the ASYLUM offers a member such as myself.

how many members of this forum are members of a labor union?

federal and state laws in the US make it hard for one to even consider organizing a campaign to unionize a shop, not to mention the interference by management in order to stop employee efforts to organize.

the statistics illustrate the percentage of non-unionized US workers which is staggering.

the total percentage of US workers (public and private) who belong to a union is only 13%

statistics can be fooling and misleading, however; this is a telling one to consider for everyone who works: It means that growth industries (directly effecting the working-class) in the US are being privatized at an alarming rate in order to service the wealthy.

US Democrats and Republicans seem to not have an answer for this age old question of capitalism and its viability to provide a better life for the working-class.

wasn't it Marx who said in CAPITAL, "Capitalism creates its own gravediggers."

the professional class of lawyers, doctors and teachers are even feeling it to because of the people they serve.

try the TEAMSTERS quiz at http://edu.teamster.org/quizzes/0004_teamsters_quiz.htm

as one who's studied the history of labor unions in the United States of America, especially labor victories in the New England Textile Industries of the 19th Century, and worked in the private sector and for a privately owned family business during the time of the Clinton and Bush economies, i've been disgruntled by the fact that some workers consider unions to not be necessary.

why?

a contracted labor worker in my opinion has a better chance to get a fair deal than an uncontracted wage worker such as myself who works in the food service industry.

the idea of an "employee at will," which seems to be the standard, is an onerous concept and even if you're required to join a union shop, one has a trial period of close to ninety days.

i strongly believe in labor unions and the rank and file organizing in the interest of working people.

where does the ASYLUM weigh in?

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

I'm all in favour of labour unions. It allows the government to butt the fuck out of labour relations and let the two sides wrangle it out themselves. I'm totally opposed to 'union closed shop' workplaces, however.

It seems silly to me to wish or expect employers to act nice for their employees unless they have to (for example, at times of high employment or because of threat of union action). Unions effectively provide some insurance for their members, and a tougher voice. On the other hand, employers shouldn't be restricted as in the closed shop situation, where they can only employ union labour, because that puts way too much power in the hands of the union. So far as political activity goes, if employers/corporations can give to political parties, so can unions (nerither situation is what I like, but it does have the virtue of relative simplicity and equality).

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 18146

if you ask Dad, he'll say that labor is a variable resource, and he'd be right about that. That doesn't mean I think collective bargaining is a bad idea. I'd skip the whole issue though and shoot for a management job.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

Not everyone has a father who can get them a good job, though. Some people have to work at a level appropriate to their capabilities and work ethic.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

I was a member of the RMT (railway and maritime transport workers) in the UK for a few years, and they did a fair amount of good by us and I was glad to have them represent me.

My experience of unionism in the USA has been a negative one, with them seemingly more interested in protectionism and securing themselves unnecessary OT than protecting workers rights and fair wages.

Of course, I was never the best example of a union man. Our idea of holding a picket line was playing football at the entrance and booting it at the scabs (until 11am when the pubs opened, then we'd fuck off for the day).

Last edited by Goatboy on 12-20-2004 at 08:02 PM

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

favoritism and nepotism were rampant as part of my work experience, frank.

the administrator or manager's position isn't all that it is cracked up to be in regard to certain jobs.

most managers (in the auto parts industry or human service field and even the food service industry) i've encountered have either been bastards or two-face phonies, if you know what i mean.

"if you ask Dad, he'll say that labor is a variable resource, and he'd be right about that. That doesn't mean I think collective bargaining is a bad idea. I'd skip the whole issue though and shoot for a management job"

believe you/me, i've heard the union rank and file belly-ache over labor's officialdom who represent them at the bargaining table and don't represent close to what the rank and file want in reality.

yeah, i hear you, frank, a manager's salary is a nice pay off, but i'm a man who doesn't want to be bought like in this song:

Worker's Song (Handful of Earth)
written by Ed Pickford

This one's for the workers who toil night and day
By hand and by brain, to earn your pay
For centuries long past for no more than your bread
Have bled for your countries and counted your dead
In the factories and mills, in the shipyards and mines
We've often been told to keep up with the times
For our skills are not needed, they've streamlined the job
And with slide rule and stopwatch, our pride they have robbed

(chorus)
We're the first ones to starve, we're the first ones to die
The first ones in line for that pie in the sky
And we're always the last when the cream is shared out
For the worker is working when the fat cat's about

And when the sky darkens and the prospect is war
Who's given the gun and then pushed to the fore
And expected to die for the land of our birth
Though we've never owned one lousy handful of earth

And all of these things the worker has done
From tilling the fields to carrying the gun
We've been yoked to the plow since time first began
And always expected to carry the can.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: China
Posts: 11795

Unions destroyed that New England textile industry, as well as most other manufacturing in America by inflexibility and uncompetetiveness.

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

I saw a program a while back that dealt with the miner's strike. It was a glorious folly, because Thatcher laid the trap (while stockpiling two years' worth of coal) which Scargill (leader of the NUM) walked into, and it ended with Thatcher achieving her aim of shutting down most of the UK coal industry. In the meantime, though, the general solidarity and determination of the miners, their dedication to trying to preserve their way of life, was really quite noble (a few scumbags aside) and impressive.

Some of the anti-union people tend to forget why the unions appeared in the first place, and how brutally the employers reacted toward them when, by most moral lights, the unionisers were in the moral right.

While we are posting songs:

There Is Power In A Union

by Billy Bragg

There is power in a factory, power in the land
Power in the hand of the worker
But it all amounts to nothing if together we don't stand
There is power in a Union

Now the lessons of the past were all learned with workers blood
The mistakes of the bosses we must pay for
From the cities and the farmlands to trenches full of mud
War has always been the bosses way, sir

The Union forever,defending our rights
Down with the blackleg,all workers unite
With our brothers and our sisters from many far-off lands
There is power in a Union

Now I long for the morning that they realise
Brutality and unjust laws cannot defeat us
But who'll defend the workers who cannot organise
When the bosses send their lackeys out to cheat us?

Money speaks for money,the Devil for his own
Who comes to speak for the skin and the bone?
What a comfort for the widow,a light to the child
There is power in a Union

The Union forever,defending our rights
Down with the blackleg,all workers unite
With our brothers and our sisters together we will stand
There is power in a Union

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Registered: Dec 2004
Location: Masssachusetts, USA
Posts: 37

first, i should say that i attended the MILLION WORKER MARCH last October and was motivated by the determination of labor to turn out in a different way than what was encouraged by the AFL-CIO (http://www.millionworkermarch.org)

the Federal US government has never been labor friendly in the US on the basis of it's always one step forward and two step backwards for labor.

the "closed union shop" is a good idea as a fight back defense tactic by union labor was put on the defensive by the onerous Taft-Hartley Act during the Truman administration (post World War II/US Congress)

Taft-Hartley Act

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/USAhartley.htm

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

I don't see how it can be fair that someone has to join a union in order to work at a given workplace. The incentive for the union to serve its members well is largely removed by compulsory membership (not to mention that, in effect, it is extortion of the union dues), and it makes it that much harder for employers to maintain profitability. This problem is then exacarbated by competition with foreign plants, who are able to operate with much lower wages and cheaper working conditions. I favour a free market in trade, but also in labour. A union closed shop, or a forbidding of union formation, are neither in the interests of the free market in labour.

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Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 18146

good argument for entrepreneurship as well. the best way to stick it to the man is to BE the man.

restaurant managers make a killing. I recruit them for a living. I got a call this morning from an event center north of the Cities here. They want a manager, and the salary is anywhere from $50-100K plus bonus.

I don't think it's management's job to take care of workers. It is their job to pay a fair market price for the labor produced and to not put people in positions that are dangerous without adequate compensation for the risk. Anything the unions can achieve on behalf of workers is fine by me, but I also think, as goatboy mentioned, that American unions have done themselves no real credit in the last generation or so and are paying the price for that now in falling numbers.

I don't think every industry needs unionized labor. It works better for some types of situations than it does for others.

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Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Oceanside, CA
Posts: 5154

I'm all in favor of unions; I see them as the best way to correct the imbalance of power between management and labor. However, like Smug, I think they should be voluntary. I don't see anything wrong or unAmerican with workers deciding together that they will pool their power to improve their condition.

It does seem to happen, though, that unions become corrupt and abusive at times, and that is to be fought just as much as corruption and abuse by management. I don't see either as worse than the other.

There's a grocery store around here, Whole Foods (expensive and health-foody, but has some really yummy stuff) which is a non-union store. As far as I can tell, though, they do not go to extraordinary lengths to prevent their employees from unionizing. Their employees aren't unionized because they are well-paid and well-treated already, and so they don't feel the need to form a union. During the recent big Southern California supermarket strike, the checkers' union didn't picket in front of Whole Foods, at least in my neighborhood. While they don't like the fact that it is nonunion, I think that was teir tacit recognition that it is nonunion for an acceptable reason.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4691

quote:

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Originally posted by Seth_John
the "closed union shop" is a good idea as a fight back defense tactic by union labor was put on the defensive by the onerous Taft-Hartley Act during the Truman administration (post World War II/US Congress)

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Registered: Aug 2001
Location: Hilbert Space
Posts: 35656

It's a 'greater good' argument, I would say. As normal, arguments like that run counter to 'individual choice' arguments.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26420

I pretty much agree with Smug's first post. I very much like the idea of unions in theory, more than I do in practice. In practice they tend to be vehicles of extreme protectionism, and I feel that in America organized labor is a dying breed, probably as a result of having fought a losing battle. That it will probably ultimately turn out to be a losing battle is half their fault, but half just inevitability.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Insatiation
Posts: 9026

I worked for Rand McNally in Indianapolis. I was a midlevel manager for them.
We had 4 different unions work in the plant.
It was the most horrendous work experience in my life. Not because my job was unpleasant or difficult, but because the unions made it so hard to do well.
The main union I dealt with was the teamsters.
In over 30 years of work experience, I've never seen less productivity, less work ethic in a workplace.
I've always been the kind of person that makes sure what needs done, gets done. This was damn near impossible here. Every single small detail I could have taken care of on my own had to be done strictly by a union person. I couldn't move a skid 5 feet to the right or tighten a screw on a conveyor belt without a grievance being filed against me.

This union was so powerful that at one time, the #1 seniority teamster while ostensibly out to pick up parts for a machine, was caught screwing off in a titty bar on work time.
His punishment? He was assigned a different duty. This same guy when assigned to drive a machine that cleaned floors, fell asleep on the maching and ran into a stanchion where he remained asleep while the slow moving vehicle bumped, bumped bumped against the stanchion.
I wrote him up. His punishment?
None at all.
Eventually the plant at Indianapolis ended up losing money hand over fist and closed. At that point I recall union members begging to take pay cuts to keep the place open. They were refused. They'd been told for over a year that if the plant did not function properly, it would close. They laughed.
They weren't laughing anymore when it closed.

Conversely, I worked for Polygram (a division of Phillips at the time) in their warehouse. I was an independent contractor for them, but their base work force were members of the UAW of all things.
These people were run roughshod over, it was embarrassing to watch how little their union did for them and how abusive their employers were.

So I've seen first hand strong and weak unions, but to date I've never seen a union that was able to balance protecting their members and the company provides their jobs.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

I spoke to some people that worked for the railwaorkers union over here and the new guys were told to work slower so management set lower benchmarks and standards.

Needless to say, the new guys weren't working at that great a pace in the first place (they didn't even know the job), the union guys were just bone idle and liked to fuck off and do nothing. Though with my history on the railways, I have no idea where this holier than thou attitude comes from.

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Registered: Apr 2004
Location: Insatiation
Posts: 9026

When you can't be fired even for gross malfeasance, you start thinking you can do no wrong. That's where it often comes from I think.
Not only did the older guys fuck off, but they actively discouraged new guys from working hard and making them look bad.

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Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4691

When our ship was in the yards they hired contractors, who were unionized, to perform quite a few tasks.

One task was to grind up and re-lay all the nonskid on the outer decks. Nonskid is basically thick ass paint with sand in it, which forms a strip you can walk on without sliding all over the place.

So, they put me and this other guy in charge of a work gang of like 10 guys. All we had to do was make sure they showed up on time and didn't try to steal anything. We didn't really care how slow they worked since they had 6 months to do a 3-week job, and got paid the same whether they fucked off or not.

Well, we keep coming up one guy short every time we mustered the work gang. So, the XO tells us to look around the yards and see if he's just assigned somewhere else.

Eventually we found him in this shack, fast asleep. Turns out (by his own admission) that he would just wander into the yards around 8 in the morning and sleep and read books in the shack all day, and then collect his money and go home.

When we reported it to the Union, they did absolutely fuck-all.

Now, if I joined this organization, thinking that I could bust my ass and move ahead rapidly, I would be sorely disappointed--I would get blocked by a bunch of people who play politics and never do any work.

Not that I think it's indicative of all unions, necessarily, but that has been my experience to date--based on that, fuck the unions. They do nothing for me and probably never will--they seem to just benefit lazy no-skill-having fuckwads.

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Registered: Jan 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 13002

Unions are bad for business and take the piss, they should be abolished. Organised labour should not be able to bring industry to knees. It's as simple as that. As for the "right to strike", everyone can have it, so long as they realise that employers have the "right to fire" to. Rarely am I a Thatcherite, but on the issue of unions I am. Trotskyite wankers.

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Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26420

quote:

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Originally posted by philjit
Organised labour should not be able to bring industry to knees. It's as simple as that.

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