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Ruth Kelly, the new woman in charge of education policy is apparently a member of the fundamentalist Catholic sect Opus Dei. Fantastic... and quite possibly unconstitutional too

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eep, that's like electing a scientologist -- they're total freaks.

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"This education is pope approved - holy virgins only"

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freedom of religion anyone?

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Bob Novak is an Opus Dei, btw. I just found that out a few weeks ago.

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Is he a numary or a supernumary (you ca probably tell from whether he is married)?

Opus Dei people are fucking odd, and Opus Dei itself is sinister. I worked with a couple of Opus Dei Numaries, and one of them was all about the recruitment (the other wasn't, he seemed pretty laid-back).

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quote:

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Fantastic... and quite possibly unconstitutional too

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I don't know if it is the constitutional issue, but numaries are very much under the influence of their superiors in Opus Dei (far moreso than they are under the influence of their temporal bosses). Of course, any catholic is in theory under papal authority, but the Church has become more sensible about not trying to wield that authority to set catholics against their employers or governments. I'm not sure that anyone would wish to employ an Opus Dei numary if they could avoid it (might not be legal, though).

The constitutional thing might relate to some of the anti-catholic relics in UK government, that date back hundreds of years. Feelings certainly ran high back then (part of the brouhaha that led to the Civil War was based on concerns about catholic infiltration of the Court, up to and including the King himself).

Last edited by Smug Git on 12-22-2004 at 03:21 PM

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quote:

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Originally posted by squee
On what grounds?

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There have been catholic ministers before anyhow (one of the Tory education ministers, John Patten, was a staunch catholic). Blair is a de facto catholic himself (he was taking communion until it came out and the priest administering it to him was censured).

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I thought that the Act of Settlement only dealt with the succession to the Throne.

hmmmm....

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to be fair it does, but as her job is an Office of the Crown it becomes intrinsically linked. There is nothing wrong, perse, about having a Catholic minister (although Prime Minister is a different matter hence what Smug said),but the issue with Kelly is more te potential Opus Dei connection given the area of policy she is charge of.

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So is it true they employ flagellant assassins in their quest for the holy grail*?

*Which is, apparently, pussy.

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Only if you believe Dan Brown.

So, phil, Smug...is this an issue of someone being in government who is obviously in the sway and/or employ of a powerful lobbying group?

Or is it that you have laws against Catholics holding office?

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Opus Dei are an odd bunch, pretty much what would normally be called a 'cult' if they were outside a mainstream religion or denomination.

The situation of a numary is more than 'in the sway', anyhow. I don't want anyone from Opus Dei in any power, anywhere, frankly. It gave me the creeps watching one of my former Opus Dei colleagues recruiting for them, too. If they are going to be teachers, they should leave out the recruitment (which my other Opus Dei colleague did). Mind you, if that was the case, maybe they wouldn't have been instructed to become teachers in the first place (as I gather these two were).

Clearly, I don't think that there should be any rules against having a catholic in office, and I would support ending the Prime Minister's role in selecting the Archbishop of Canterbury (which would be a prerequisite in having a catholic Prime Minister).

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I got you, but it reads like you're for having Catholics in office, but only so long as they're not "too" Catholic.

Can you flesh that out a bit? Where do you draw the line?

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Opus Dei numeries live in commune and give all their wages to their House. They take orders from their superiors in Opus Dei above all others, even up to what jobs to go for. They basically have a policy of putting their guys into jobs where they can recruit for the order, or else wield power. Being Opus Dei is not being 'too catholic', it is basically being part of a cult. Whatever their stated aims may have been, the organisation itself as it is today is sinister. Not in the international conspiracy Da Vinci Code sort of way, but, nevertheless, sinister (the neocatacuminans aren't much better, according to some, either). These aren't a bunch of conventional religious, like (say) most monks.

Opus Dei were also apologists for atrocities committed by Croats against Serbs (and by anyone against Bosnian moslems), as I recall.

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So, I draw the line at politicians basically taking orders from non-elected officials. Seeing as taking orders from your Opus Dei superiors is basically compulsory if you are a numery, that should rule them out of office.

Supernumeries aren't under the same constraints, as a rule, but even so, the nature of Opus Dei is such that it makes me intrinsically suspicious of their involvement in government.

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Another thing to consider is that they don't make available translations of many of their operating documents. They employ casuistry in describing their activities as "discreet," when in fact it is difficult to find out which schools and charities are affiliated with OD. Some lists do exist on the internet, but they're considered to be incomplete, due to OD's secretiveness.

Consider also that the tools for physical mortification are given to OD folk, and are thus widely available and their use encouraged. The Catholic Church as a whole, however, frowns on any physical mortification (barbed wire on the legs, beating oneself) without advanced spiritual direction. Very few people are actually qualified -- spiritually and emotionally -- to direct individuals in something like this. Add to the fact that OD discourages confessing to priests outside OD, and that OD priests make up some 5% of the OD population, the chances that individuals with the TOOLS for mortification are actually receiving appropriate guidance are slim.

There are ways to be a traditional Catholic that don't require cult involvement.

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Here are some links from both sides of the fence:

http://www.americamagazine.org/arti...tin-opusdei.cfm

http://dmoz.org/Society/Religion_an...icism/Opus_Dei/

http://www.opusdei.org/

http://www.odan.org/media_opus_dei_priest.htm

http://www.catholicity.com/mccloskey/

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Incidentally, I have been misspelling 'numerary' all through. Tut.

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quote:

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Originally posted by squee
So, phil, Smug...is this an issue of someone being in government who is obviously in the sway and/or employ of a powerful lobbying group?

Or is it that you have laws against Catholics holding office?

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