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Thimbles worth of opinion
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An open letter to Democrats and Progressives

An open letter to Democrats and Progressives
By the Thimble

My friends, we live in interesting times.

We live in times that have changed the world from being a series of regions into a region from which there is no border. Where space, as a constraint upon connection, has ceased to be. We live in the global age.

And with these times, with change, comes fear. But we cannot retreat from fear. We must approach that which makes us fear and understand it. Once we have understanding, we can use action to achieve an intended consequence. Action, without understanding, results in unintended consequences. It results in chaos.

Therefore we must understand something about American politics. We are at war. They have declared war, they have fought the war, they are winning the war, and it is because we do not understand that we are at war that we are losing this “Culture War”. It is because we have sought compromise and reciprocation from an enemy who does not reciprocate or compromise that we look weak and lost. We cannot appease the aggressor. We must fight. It is time we end compromise. It is time we end negotiation. It is time to stop flip flopping.

It is time to declare war.

That these truths are not self evident saddens those who would believe in you. That the leader of our movement would retreat to a land of prayer, when the believers in democracy needed his support on the battlefield, is outrageous. That democrats would vote to certify an election under spurious circumstances, that they would allow the endorser of torture to be confirmed with their approval, is shameful. It does not matter whether or not your disapproval has any effect on the outcome, what matters is that you disapprove of the outcome. You register complaint. You fight. You understand what you believe in, you live by it, and die by it. This is war.

And we believe in democracy. We know what they believe in.

"For it has been said so truthfully that it is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us the freedom of the press. It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the agitator, who has given us the freedom to protest.

It is the soldier who salutes the flag, serves beneath the flag, whose coffin is draped by the flag, who gives that protester the freedom to abuse and burn that flag.

No one should dare to even think about being the Commander in Chief of this country if he doesn't believe with all his heart that our soldiers are liberators abroad and defenders of freedom at home."


They believe that the soldier is the vanguard of the constitution, the securer of democracy. Is that such a good premise?

The soldier lives in an authoritarian environment in which a heirarchy dictates their orders and they follow them without question. When we look at history, we see that the elements from this environment do not produce democracy. From Haiti to Chile to Argentina to El Salvador, and many places which should be familiar to our memory, they have produced dictators. We see, that when elements of the military assume responsibility for civilian society, we get secrecy, regimentally, unaccountability, near absolute authority, and - without fail - catastrophe.

It is because of this that:
"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together. "


The soldier secures our national borders and projects our national presence. The soldier mobilizes our society, it does not fight for our right to speak. That right is fought for by our thinkers, our dreamers, our students, our teachers, our lawyers, and - most importantly - our press.

For it is our press which educates us about the goings on within the corridors of power. It is the press which acts as the final check and balance of government authority. It is the press which gives us the information by which we evaluate the actions of government. Our lives, as informed citizens of the Republic which represents us, depends upon the communication of truth, for which the press is responsible for distributing. And where is that press?

It is within a corporate environment in which a heirarchy dictates their orders and the journalists follow them without question.

We live interesting times. We are at war - but we are not without weapons. We have the truth, a weapon which cuts both ways - as it should if we veer from its calling. We have an electronic medium, which remains democratic, to distribute this truth. We have a calling to fight, not without question, but with the information and questions necessary to confront authoritarian power. We need to become a citizen’s army, mobilized by what we know, to confront those who believe in what they’re told.

We need to stop giving ground to fight another day. Given ground is lost ground and there is always another day to fight. Today is your day. Every day is your day from this moment on. If you are elected to represent your citizens, fight for them as Feingold, Wellstone, Boxer, and others have done - often on their own. We need take ground, become proactive, seize this day for there are challenges from these authortarians which must be met if democratic society is to be maintained.

And the war must be fought in the homes of the constituients, by the protests of our people, by the true vanguards of democracy - its citizens. We all must act as we now stand against the wall of the constitution, ready to give ground.

We must be brave now and declare our War for Democracy.

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Old Post 01-13-2005 10:35 AM
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lucidnightmare
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I feel your pain.The life of a leftist ( which as a fan of Hugo Chavez you must be ) has to be a hard one in the US.

The frustration of not having class hate , envy and blamming the "upper class" for their problems not taking root among red state whites that has worked so well in other cases .The failure to wipe out hope that one day , if they work hard, they may be able to raise their standard of living and pass it on to their children, rather than have the government take it away like a big benevolent mommy and give it to us like an allowance .

It is a shame that liberals can't do for poor whites what they have done for inner city blacks. Maybe that the result that the left wanted though? A preputial poor, dependant on the government, and bitter voting block, after all that is the only way they can get and keep power .

That is failing with the Latinos too , who as they move into the middle class are turning their backs on the left in droves.The left won't be able to keep them in ghettos like they have blacks it seems.

The failure to pass hatred of western culture off as multiculturalism and self flogging sappy self righteous guilt as enlightenment .It has worked so well in Europe after all.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/...storyId=4191408

I think there are far too many guns , too much hope and pride and not enough bitterness and envy in America for a workers paradise to be built.

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Trenchant_Troll
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Shiit, Liberals declared war on America a long time ago. It was right about then that the whining maggots started losing it.

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Smug Git
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The American Right's winning strategy is to drown out the lefty whines with their own. Boo hoo, evil Liberal Media Conspiracy. At this rate, the GOP is going to end up like the Democrats, only much, much stupider.

In an ideal world, an intelligent party of the Right would then emerge, but in reality, probably not.

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Trenchant_Troll
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Welcome to Earth. Are you visiting here on business or for pleasure?

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Old Post 01-13-2005 03:26 PM
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lucidnightmare
Max Power

Registered: Nov 2003
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quote:
Originally posted by Smug Git
The American Right's winning strategy is to drown out the lefty whines with their own. Boo hoo, evil Liberal Media Conspiracy. At this rate, the GOP is going to end up like the Democrats, only much, much stupider.

In an ideal world, an intelligent party of the Right would then emerge, but in reality, probably not.



I am uncomfortable with the religious right , even though I defend their right to have a place in the party , I think they worry too much about what other people are doing in their private lives. I wish Republicans could win without them .(I do mean the extreme ones) But I fear their vision less than I do that of the far left.

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Mugtoe
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quote:
Originally posted by lucidnightmare
I am uncomfortable with the religious right , even though I defend their right to have a place in the party , I think they worry too much about what other people are doing in their private lives. I wish Republicans could win without them .(I do mean the extreme ones) But I fear their vision less than I do that of the far left.


you likely don't squirm at Leviticus quite as much as I do.

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So shalt the abomination squirmeth with the hearing of the word, and by the hearing of the word great squirming by the abomination shalt there be. Thus the squirming of the abomination at the hearing of the word shalt be great.

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lucidnightmare
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quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe
you likely don't squirm at Leviticus quite as much as I do.


This country is a long way from killing gay people , from the government end anyway , I don't know of anyone other than obscure nuts who have even suggested it ,we put those who kill gay people on death row.

What I worry about with the religious right is that if they were able to tear down the wall between church and state that it would be used later by Muslims who believe it is their duty , if able, to install Islamic law on a local level at the least , they are calling for that on a small scale in Canada , so it isn't far fetched, in that case you should squirm.


I think religion has a role , but it should be kept as a cultural force rather than overtly political.

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Smug Git
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Yes, the well-known electoral majority of Islamic voters is very likely to impose Sharia rule in the US.

You're closer to killing fags than you are to the scenario detailed above, if we want to discuss likelihoods. But I do agree that the effects of attacking the Church/State seperation might well be larger than, and eventually contrary to, the those desired by the people doing it. However, that element of the Christian Right are somewhat ascendent now (although they may take a hit if Delay gets indicted) and that is a big concern, to me at least. Had the GOP some power in the last election then there might have had to be a re-evalation of this and the GOP could have been somewhat reclaimed by fiscal and governmental conservatives, but that isn't what happened.

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Thimbles worth of opinion
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quote:

The frustration of not having class hate , envy and blamming the "upper class" for their problems not taking root among red state whites that has worked so well in other cases .The failure to wipe out hope that one day , if they work hard, they may be able to raise their standard of living and pass it on to their children, rather than have the government take it away like a big benevolent mommy and give it to us like an allowance .



quote:


If you believe your family knows how to spend your money better than the government does, then you are a Republican!




Love the rhetoric. It's like hitting someone on the knee and watching them jerk. I talk about democracy and you hear "liberal", "class warfare", "tax tax tax", which had nothing to do with the discussion. But you jerk anyways.

Listen to yourself. When you use this fucking rhetoric you know that you're argueing against government revenue, don't you?

Which means you're argueing against the things that government revenue pays for like public schools, medicare, social security, public science, NATIONAL DEFENCE, HOMELAND SECURITY, NATIONAL INTELLEGENCE, LAW ENFORCEMENT (caps for the people who regularly argue how we can't have enough of these things, but argue against the ability to pay for it).

In other words you are argueing against the activities of the government which take up the bulk of expenditure for the sake of your ire at what? Welfare? Socialism?

Let's forget that the red states are bloody hypocrites in that they are welfare states.

I'm not talking about that.

I'm talking about :
quote:

If you believe that government should be accountable to the people, not the people to the government, then you are a Republican!


But not a Bush republican because he is becomeing an unaccountable power. He has been using war as a tool to change democratic institutions into authortarian ones. He lies constantly, even starting a war based on one.

He fucking uses torture. Publicly. How much lower can a government descend?

Until we stop compromise and letting Bush "reach out to everyone who shares our goals" there will be regression in this country.

Our goals are not in common. We do not believe in wageing war based on lies, we do not believe in borrowing billions of dollars from the bond market to pay for tax cuts, we do not believe in inventing new catagories of enemies so that we can strip their rights, we do not believe in supressing reaonsable protest through gestapo tactics, we do not believe in tampering with an election process to guarantee our winner, and we do not believe in torture.

That's my point.

And yes I am a fan of Hugo Chavez. He gets elected legally, unlike some people. He believes in Keynsian wealth stimulation and land reform.

Bush believes in Keynesian wealth stimulation - it's been his justification for his tax cutting, lump sum, wealth transfers to the rich.
http://www.ncpa.org/oped/bartlett/feb2601.html
http://www.pkarchive.org/column/120600.html

Does that make him a leftist?

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Old Post 01-14-2005 02:20 AM
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Thimbles worth of opinion
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The Anti-Americans
by Guy Reel
http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0113-21.htm

It's been a little more than two months since the election, and one thing is clear: You've got to hand it to the rightie-tighties. The pursed-lipped, pseudo-moralist right-wing commentators and pundits have the debate right where they want it. Their arguments are so easy and simple, they have mass appeal. They have the Democrats cornered, and unless the frame of the debate is changed, the Democrats have little chance of reversing the political fortunes of the nation for some time.

The following observations are aimed at the right-wing pundits - not at the numerous Republicans who just want the same things we all do: safety, security, a good educational system, a high standard of living, an ability to offer hope for the rest of the world. Most mainstream Republicans by definition aren't radicals, and most don't even listen to the cable news and right-wing radio commentators. Thus, many of them are by chance not aware, or are deliberately unaware, of the right's poisonous commentary that passes for political debate in America. What that means is - most Republicans don't know about the radical voices that speak for them. For the pundits who dominate the airwaves - the rightie-tighties - are painting their opponents as enemies not just of America, but of normalcy, decency, and common sense. In other words, the right-wing commentators are creating an atmosphere that threatens the fabric of our democracy by casting liberal foes as enemies and as corrupt spiritual and moral cowards. To stop this insanity, and the division, Republicans of good conscience need to stand up and be counted among the reasonable.

Think about it for a second. Here's the way the extreme right-wingers - i.e., people you hear every day, all day, on TV and radio - have termed the debate:

If you fight for civil liberties, you're pro-criminal.

If you fight for justice in U.S. foreign policies, you're anti-American.

If you think people should have a right to determine their life partners and give them health benefits, you're pro-queer.

If you question the justice of a war based on false intelligence, you don't support the troops.

If you think the U.S. government should not be spying on its own citizens, you're pro-terrorist.

If you think the United States should not be torturing those it holds captive, you're coddling murderers.

If you think people should not be held indefinitely without trial or lawyers, you support terrorism.

If you think society should help the poor, you're soft on the shiftless.

If you want equal education for all, you're pro-black at the expense of whites.

If you want health care for all, you're a socialist.

If you think everyone has a right to a fair trial, you're soft on crime.

If you hope for a fairer tax system, you're for higher taxes.

If you want a government that helps people, you're for big government.

The list of lies could go on. But in short, it is clear that the righteous right has done a great job of framing the debate as one that pits "normal" and "good" Americans against all the "others" - the poor, the minorities, the gays, the disenfranchised, and the liberals who sometimes champion their causes. Consequently, many of these "normal" Americans are convinced that the Democrats and the liberals are their enemies. Of course, the right-wing's ability to fight ideological wars in the homeland is remarkably more efficient than their ability to manage real fighting overseas; perhaps that's to be expected, since many of the neocons and their mendacious pundit friends are notorious draft-dodgers.

Their rhetorical trick is no secret. The right-wing blowhards make no distinctions between Democrats, liberals, and extreme left-wingers who do indeed sometimes espouse values that are out of touch with most people. Thus, Democrats or liberals are called anti-American, and are painted as against common-sense values that ordinarily would unite us all.

But here is the rub: The opposite is what is actually true: The real anti-Americans are the rabid right-wingers who are polluting our airwaves with endless lies and paranoia that are poisoning the nation and its future.

The real anti-Americans are those who, if you will just take a moment to listen to the pundits and observe the policies of this administration, are against the greatest principles upon which this country was founded:

They are against personal liberty, having endorsed government suspension of habeus corpus and having backed the government's power to monitor what books you check out of the library.

They are for big government, wanting a government so invasive that it can monitor your bedroom activities or stop a grandmother from smoking pot to alleviate her cancer pain.

They are against civil liberties, having supported the government's power to spy on our bookstore, credit card and hotel receipts.

They have fought for a weaker military, having compromised the country's military might and harmed our readiness to wage necessary wars, all the while fighting against better benefits for veterans and those in harm's way.

They favor a weaker America, supporting fiscal policies that are emasculating the nation through ruinous deficits and reckless fiscal acts that threaten the dollar and our standard of living, thus compromising our position as the world's greatest power.

They support a secretive government, founded on cronyism and ideological loyalties rather than upon democracy and openness.

They are undermining the United States' leadership as a moral beacon for the world, having ignored many of our allies and sponsored an arrogant foreign policy that encourages terrorism.

They are against basic morals, such as help for the poor, education for all, social security, and universal health care for children, the poor and the unemployed.

They are on the side of the wealthy and the powerful at the expense of the underdog, having redirected tax and regulatory policies that favor the richest among us.

They are against the young and unborn, having enacted policies that increase the number of abortions and the infant mortality rate.

They are against states' rights, having backed judges who favor greater federal power in energy, health care, and electoral policies.

They are for environmental policies that are not conservationist - i.e., are not conservative - but instead reward polluters and promote consumption of resources.

They are anti-capitalist, favoring not a free marketplace but a big government that determines winners and losers through payouts to the biggest contributors to their coffers - i.e., the wealthiest drug, energy, business and military contractors.

They are hypocrites, immoral in their personal conduct - as are we all - but they loudly and happily condemn those on the other side as hypocrites and examples of moral failings.

They are against the greatest of American values - common sense - by offering arguments even the most casual listening reveals are blatantly illogical and prone to fallacy.

They look upon the ordinary people, even those who support them, with contempt, as they speak as demagogues yet condemn those who speak out against them as demagogues.

None of this sounds like the Americans I know.

That's especially true of the Republicans I know. Yet, the Republicans are allowing these dangerous demagogues to speak as conservatives, which they are not; they are allowing them to speak out as as pro-American, which they are not; and they are letting them pose as Republicans, which they certainly are not. These right-wing pundits are dangerous not just for the Democrats, but will almost certainly prove to be, ultimately, the undoing of the Republicans. That's because once a few of their lies collapse, their entire system of propaganda will collapse in a matter of weeks. Republicans with sense and with morals must speak out to be heard above them, and they must do it now - for their own survival as well as for our well being as a nation.

America has always stood for justice, freedom, and hope for the downtrodden. If you don't believe it, read the enscription on the Statue of Liberty. America is a conservative nation, given to conservative values of freedom, caution, happiness, and hope. Yet none of these values are embodied by the people who speak for the far right today. They are not conservative, and they believe in few of our American ideals. Listen to them. They have lied so succesfully they have convinced those who do believe them that it is the "other side," not them, who are the anti-Americans. It is a common tool of propaganda - do what the enemy does, while blaming the enemy for it - and it must be stopped.

Many, many Republicans are not on the side of these pundits. Yet party affilitation and the "blue-state/red-state" dichotomy has colored our thinking. We are being divided by the lies of the right-wing pundits.

It must be said now, and it must be said again and again: These pundits claim the Democrats and the liberals are anti-American. But of course it is the other way around. The extreme right-wing commentators are anti-American in every way - in their values, morals, conduct, hypocrisy, and propagandist denegration of the values they claim to espouse.

That is the way to reframe the debate. The liberals aren't the anti-Americans. The anti-Americans are the ultra right-wing hysterics who are warning you against the nefarious liberals. The anti-Americans are the ones who are actually warning you against basic American values, yet they are the same people pretending to be wrapped up in the cloth of the American flag.

If that seems harsh, it must be said because, after all, they say it every single day about anyone who disagrees with them.

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Old Post 01-14-2005 03:21 AM
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Liberalism
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Interesting piece. I would say, however, that reversing the "trend" won't be difficult if the left continues to mobilize and push its causes and ideals.

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lucidnightmare
Max Power

Registered: Nov 2003
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Posts: 3351

quote:
It's been a little more than two months since the election, and one thing is clear: You've got to hand it to the rightie-tighties. The pursed-lipped, pseudo-moralist right-wing commentators and pundits have the debate right where they want it. Their arguments are so easy and simple, they have mass appeal. They have the Democrats cornered, and unless the frame of the debate is changed, the Democrats have little chance of reversing the political fortunes of the nation for some time.


The way the issues are framed isn't the problem as these progressives would have it .The problem isn't that they couldn't find the correct way to package their beliefs so that the people they see as beneath them , the teeming masses of dumb rednecks , racist , Islamiphobes and greedy white people who object to having their money redistributed as the benevolent ascended masters know is best for us all .

Part of the problem may be that the left is too arrogant to admit that there is any possibility that they may be wrong, rather than millions of people being too stupid to comprehend their higher than thou musings.

quote:
The following observations are aimed at the right-wing pundits - not at the numerous Republicans who just want the same things we all do: safety, security, a good educational system, a high standard of living, an ability to offer hope for the rest of the world.


For us all to agree that we want safety and security , we would all have to first admit the need for it, according to many liberal writers the war on terror that they mock even the mention of, is nothing more than a redneck Christian attack on Islam ( which despite the fact that it is involved in the justification of violence on almost every patch of land the planet is a peaceful religion above even question) and a pretense for taking over the world oil supply .

Not only that, even if we are attacked ,we sort of deserve it because of our "unfair policies" , which seem to be standing in the way of Islamic theocracies and the pushing into the sea of Jews.

I heard one of the anti war group leaders on C span today who sat on stage beside Black panthers(a racist group) and a women with a red star on her hat ) who will be protesting the inauguration of Bush on the 20th attacking our attack on Afghanistan , according to him we had no right to even defend our nation from future attacks from the hate group which that government allied itself with.

As far as a a high standard of living, and ability to offer hope for the rest of the world , I think the high standard of living is the first thing that the left goes after with wasteful social programs where lack of money or education isn't the problem , but lack of personal responsibility and common sense are.

We have offered hope to the women of Afghanistan and the Kurds and Shia of Iraq who will be voting for their leaders in a few days rather than fearing their former one .



quote:
Most mainstream Republicans by definition aren't radicals, and most don't even listen to the cable news and right-wing radio commentators. Thus, many of them are by chance not aware, or are deliberately unaware, of the right's poisonous commentary that passes for political debate in America. What that means is - most Republicans don't know about the radical voices that speak for them.


That is right, most people who vote for Republicans are not political junkies, they don't need to be , common sense tells them that people are responsible for their actions , that when we are attacked that we must defend ourselves, that a man who by his own effort , study , and long hours makes enough money to have some of the the luxuries of life shouldn't be punished for it, or have his money taken away and given to those who many times refused to do the things that he had to do to earn it.


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For the pundits who dominate the airwaves - the rightie-tighties - are painting their opponents as enemies not just of America, but of normalcy, decency, and common sense. In other words, the right-wing commentators are creating an atmosphere that threatens the fabric of our democracy by casting liberal foes as enemies and as corrupt spiritual and moral cowards.


The Democrats have allowed themselves to be associated with shrill radicals , far left professors who haven't lived in the real world since 1969 , anarchist , people who blame Sept.11 on the CIA and Jews, people who compare our country to Nazis ,and people who are with no doubt haters of not only America, but western culture as a whole . The Democrats are none of the above , and they need to remove themselves from the company of these people and reject publicly their claims and positions.

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To stop this insanity, and the division, Republicans of good conscience need to stand up and be counted among the reasonable.


We will when Ted Rall and Moveon.org does .Rather than spreading lies and unfounded conspiracy theories.

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Think about it for a second. Here's the way the extreme right-wingers - i.e., people you hear every day, all day, on TV and radio - have termed the debate:


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If you fight for civil liberties, you're pro-criminal.


If you are anti crime , you are a racist .

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If you fight for justice in U.S. foreign policies, you're anti-American.


No , if you bash the religious right but excuse the Taliban , if you say we deserved to be attacked,if you compare Us the Hitler and say you hope China will attack us to "teach us a lesson" then it is fair to call those people Anti American.

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If you think people should have a right to determine their life partners and give them health benefits, you're pro-queer.


If you think that marriage is a already fragile institution and as a basis of society gay marriage may weaken it's meaning and hurt society as a whole , or if you believe as million of orthodox monotheist believe ,that homo sexuality is wrong , then you are a homophobic bible thumping red neck trailer trash Nazi.

I happen not to be a cultural conservative , but I think they have a right to exist on the planet , and vote based on that belief.They are not Nazis or trash and mother- fuck those who say they are.


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If you think the U.S. government should not be spying on its own citizens, you're pro-terrorist.


Depends on what you mean ? Are you talking about investigating terrorist just like we did the mob ? That is called law enforcement.

The FBI doesn't care what library books Al Frakken is reading.

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If you think the United States should not be torturing those it holds captive, you're coddling murderers.


If you won't even consider the argument that educated people are making that this is a different time, and we MAY need to adapt , just as we always have, you may be putting us all at risk even if you don't intend to .

But we still aren't nazis.

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If you think people should not be held indefinitely without trial or lawyers, you support terrorism.


If you think that non citizen enemies of our constitution should be protected by it , or that they should have access to our legal system you are being unrealistic about how we can win this war that they declared on us .

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If you think society should help the poor, you're soft on the shiftless.


Making them dependent of the government for the rest of their lives isn't helping them.

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If you want equal education for all, you're pro-black at the expense of whites.


If you hold whites to higher standards than blacks then you are sort of saying that you think they cannot compete, and I guess really are inferior.

Holding people to different standards based on race , is racism.

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If you want health care for all, you're a socialist.


You are. if it is in the form liberals suggest.

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If you think everyone has a right to a fair trial, you're soft on crime.


I have never heard anyone say that people in the Us shouldn't have a fair trial , I guess this is a code for something.

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If you hope for a fairer tax system, you're for higher taxes.


Fair is a matter of opinion.

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If you want a government that helps people, you're for big government.


Helps them do what , and for how long?

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The list of lies could go on. But in short, it is clear that the righteous right has done a great job of framing the debate as one that pits "normal" and "good" Americans against all the "others" - the poor, the minorities, the gays, the disenfranchised, and the liberals who sometimes champion their causes.


And the more people the left can convince they are disenfranchised and the victim of the rich and white the better . Right? Forever lock people psychologically out of society by hyphenating them and giving them a siege mentality.


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Their rhetorical trick is no secret. The right-wing blowhards make no distinctions between Democrats, liberals, and extreme left-wingers who do indeed sometimes espouse values that are out of touch with most people. Thus, Democrats or liberals are called anti-American, and are painted as against common-sense values that ordinarily would unite us all.


Democrats are to blame for this blurring of distinctions .

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But here is the rub: The opposite is what is actually true: The real anti-Americans are the rabid right-wingers who are polluting our airwaves with endless lies and paranoia that are poisoning the nation and its future.


Lies and paranoia about what? Islamic terrorism , they are attacking targets every day around the world , don't make me list them , I will, or is it a CIA plot to read hippies library books?

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They are against personal liberty, having endorsed government suspension of habeus corpus and having backed the government's power to monitor what books you check out of the library.


There it is.

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They are for big government, wanting a government so invasive that it can monitor your bedroom activities or stop a grandmother from smoking pot to alleviate her cancer pain



They are against civil liberties, having supported the government's power to spy on our bookstore, credit card and hotel receipts..


What was that about paranoia?



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They are against basic morals, such as help for the poor, education for all, social security, and universal health care for children, the poor and the unemployed.


Yes, they hate the poor ..

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They are on the side of the wealthy and the powerful at the expense of the underdog, having redirected tax and regulatory policies that favor the richest among us.


Lets all hate those people! It's all their fault! No rich people got their money through hard work.

I thought liberals were for unity? Unity in what victim mentality and class warfare?

If this is the lefts reach out plan , to the poor misguided red staters ,that they really don't like , because deep down they know they are better than , after all there is nothing south of Ohio but pig farms but need them to win elections, I hope there is a plan B.

No , I don't.

__________________
NECROTIC OBSESSION

A chicken in every pot and a cap in every ass.
Peter;The Family Guy

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Thimbles worth of opinion
Symetrically challenged

Registered: Aug 2000
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Posts: 7680

quote:


The way the issues are framed isn't the problem as these progressives would have it .The problem isn't that they couldn't find the correct way to package their beliefs so that the people they see as beneath them , the teeming masses of dumb rednecks , racist , Islamiphobes and greedy white people who object to having their money redistributed as the benevolent ascended masters know is best for us all .


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Listen to yourself. When you use this fucking rhetoric you know that you're argueing against government revenue, don't you?

Which means you're argueing against the things that government revenue pays for like public schools, medicare, social security, public science, NATIONAL DEFENCE, HOMELAND SECURITY, NATIONAL INTELLEGENCE, LAW ENFORCEMENT (caps for the people who regularly argue how we can't have enough of these things, but argue against the ability to pay for it).

In other words you are argueing against the activities of the government which take up the bulk of expenditure for the sake of your ire at what? Welfare? Socialism?

Let's forget that the red states are bloody hypocrites in that they are welfare states.



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Part of the problem may be that the left is too arrogant to admit that there is any possibility that they may be wrong, rather than millions of people being too stupid to comprehend their higher than thou musings.



I believe you should be posting something in here.
http://www.asylumnation.com/asylum/...4/index.html?s=

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For us all to agree that we want safety and security , we would all have to first admit the need for it, according to many liberal writers the war on terror that they mock even the mention of, is nothing more than a redneck Christian attack on Islam ( which despite the fact that it is involved in the justification of violence on almost every patch of land the planet is a peaceful religion above even question) and a pretense for taking over the world oil supply .



Pardon our cynicism after that red herring war on terror debacle known as Iraq.

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We have offered hope to the women of Afghanistan and the Kurds and Shia of Iraq who will be voting for their leaders in a few days rather than fearing their former one .



Is that how we charecterize warlords and opium growing these days.
And, as far as Taliban and Afganistan go, first off we never got sufficient proof that Al'qeda was responsible when we attacked (however we do have direct ties to Mohamed Atta and the Pakistani ISI). Second off, the taliban offered to hand him over when given the proof and the time to find him (since the Americans have had 4 years to find him and found bupkiss, we should be sympathetic). Third off, by declaring it a war instead of a crime we gave ourselves the sanction to kill off civilians within the borders of nations which contain terrorists. And we've given ourselves the right to torture these civilians too. Therefore we have become the terrorists.

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That is right, most people who vote for Republicans are not political junkies, they don't need to be , common sense tells them that people are responsible for their actions



Unless they've proven completely incompetent and are named Bush.

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that when we are attacked that we must defend ourselves,



Unless you are an Iraqi or Afgani. Then you get tortured.

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that a man who by his own effort , study , and long hours makes enough money to have some of the the luxuries of life shouldn't be punished for it



By having to pay taxes which fund the military and their armour. Oh I see, we should borrow money from the bond market and let our children be punished. You make a lot of sense for a person who hasn't thought this through.

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or have his money taken away and given to those who many times refused to do the things that he had to do to earn it.



Oh yeah, people in the ghettos aren't entitled to the same public school facilities and programs rich white kids get, though they are supposed to be gauged by the same standardized tests. Public development should consist of jails and law enforcement, can't have too much of those.
But those things cost money too, what a pickle.

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The Democrats have allowed themselves to be associated with shrill radicals , far left professors who h