Question about gays etc.

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squee
the amen break

Registered: Jul 2001
Location: Norfolk, VA
Posts: 4678

Question about gays etc.

I recently had a discussion--not quite an argument--with one of my friends who is a flaming lefty and also an almost archetypical birkenstock-wearing, Mellisa Ethredge-listening, rug-munching dyke.

Not sure how we got on the topic of roles in society and so forth, but in the course of one discussion she asserted two things:

1. Heterosexuality is about artificial constructs designed by society for various purposes (e.g. keeping women in their place).
2. Homosexuality is determined by genetics--nature, not nurture.

I asked her if she didn't think those were contradictory positions, and she said she didn't think so, because it was obvious that hetersexual roles were confining and homosexual roles were liberating.

Anyone want to decipher this for me?

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01-15-2005 11:03 PM

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Goatboy
the anticlimax

Registered: Jul 2000
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She's a fucking loon.

And needs a good dicking to sort her out.

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01-15-2005 11:30 PM

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Smug Git
Arrogance Personified

Registered: Aug 2001
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You could have point 2 as the main point and then add something about heterosekshual roles, I guess. I would say that most people would be at least prepared to entertain that point 2 is true (apart from some real religious loons), but point 1, as expressed, is too simplistic to make sense even on its own.

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01-15-2005 11:50 PM

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Trenchant_Troll
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Registered: Mar 2004
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I think Squee is gay and is just trying to escape his gayness by taking the Angst Express.

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01-16-2005 12:39 AM

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Cruise Director
nobody special

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: Zion
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I think if open acceptance becomes the norm for homosexuality her statements might be true. Until then, ask her how "liberated" Matthew Shepard is feeling right now.

In the rose-colored glasses society, we won't have to define gender roles. (But I'll always acknowledge a fine set of tits on the cashier I just hired.)

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01-16-2005 12:45 AM

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Talarohk
The Pedanticator

Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Oceanside, CA
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Point 2 is probably at least partially true, but point 1 is silly. I'll grant that there are plenty of social constructs which arose in various cultures which operated along heterosexual guidelines, but saying that heterosexuality in itself is basically about gender roles is ludicrous. Heterosexuality is about reproducing the species. It may lead to any number of interesting social phenomena.

She might make an interesting point, though, if she wanted to suggest that homosexual relationships are inherently more equal, since both partners are the same biological gender. I don't know if I would agree, but it might be an interesting discussion.

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01-16-2005 01:10 AM

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Cruise Director
nobody special

Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by Talarohk

She might make an interesting point, though, if she wanted to suggest that homosexual relationships are inherently more equal, since both partners are the same biological gender.

Either way, those lesbians are only going to earn 65% of what us MEN earn! YAY FOR GENDER ROLES!!!

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01-16-2005 01:15 AM

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lauren000
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Registered: Feb 2004
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yeah those positions contradict themselves. Whether being gay is nature or nurture doesn't matter, the real question is if there is choice involved. If you honestly think people would choose to be shunned by society, I think you're mistaken . And why society has a grudge against homosexuals? I have no idea, other than primitive man must have decided it's a generally undesirable condition and that theology has stuck around. As for marriage being a construct to controll women, most historians would say that began during the industrial revolution with the advent of the house wife.

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01-16-2005 01:21 AM

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Large Filipino
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She's a man that cross dresses and also a lesbian.
..like RiZZ!

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01-16-2005 01:44 AM

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zim
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Registered: Dec 2002
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Hrmn. As stated they conflict, but they could be revised to be somewhat compatible.

1. Sexuality, whether gay/straight/bi is determined by genetics -- nature, not nurture.
2. Societies apparent predilection for heterosexuality is mostly due to artificial constructs designed conciously or unconciously by society for various purposes.

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01-16-2005 02:20 AM

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BellaDonita
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Registered: Nov 2004
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I think all of you are bunch of flaming closet fags.

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01-16-2005 05:58 AM

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tessellated
naughty bits

Registered: Aug 2002
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quote:
Originally posted by BellaDonita
I think all of you are bunch of flaming closet fags.

I think you should take unconstructive posts like this back to TLF.

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01-16-2005 06:38 AM

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BellaDonita
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unconstructive posts.........................HAAAAHAAA!!! you guys would know all about unconstructive posts. I was the target of them for months on this board.

Payback is a BITCH!!!!!

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01-17-2005 05:34 AM

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Trenchant_Troll
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Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:
Originally posted by BellaDonita
I think all of you are bunch of flaming closet fags.

And I think you are gutter slut with a yeast infection that could kill the Pillsbury Doughboy.

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01-17-2005 02:10 PM

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Mugtoe
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Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:
Originally posted by lauren000
yeah those positions contradict themselves. Whether being gay is nature or nurture doesn't matter, the real question is if there is choice involved. If you honestly think people would choose to be shunned by society, I think you're mistaken . And why society has a grudge against homosexuals? I have no idea, other than primitive man must have decided it's a generally undesirable condition and that theology has stuck around. As for marriage being a construct to controll women, most historians would say that began during the industrial revolution with the advent of the house wife.

yer makin an assumption about queers throughout history that isn't quite accurate. There have been many swings of the pendulum in many different cultures over time, and people have not always looked at homosexuality the way they do today; it's been this way for a relatively short period of time, actually.

And why wouldn't some people choose to be shunned by society? Just take a look at FeFe's posts in this thread. Some people thrive on that kind of attention. Some people thrive on no attention at all.

I also think a lot of people confuse orientation with lifestyle or sexual activity. There have always been people who fall more towards the homosexual end of the spectrum in their attractions but choose to live a heterosexual lifestyle out of fear or simply because it's more comfortable for them to do so than to challenge the customs they've grown up with. I've known pepple like that in my life, and I don't second-guess that choice either. But that doesn't make their orientation change.

For other people, that orientation may be a more fluid circumstance. It has been for me at different times of my life, and sometimes fluctuates over shorter periods of time. It's not a two-sided coin; it's a moveable feast.

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01-17-2005 03:01 PM

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Mugtoe
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A hetero-centric view of society may be an artificial construct in some ways, but it is certainly bolstered by biology and mirrored sufficiently in nature to make it seem like an obvious channel for society to flow within. But it can just as easily work out in any number of other permutations of acceptable custom and societal structure. It just happens to be this way right now, and I can live with that.

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01-17-2005 03:04 PM