Do My Job For Me, volume 9

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CHiPsJr
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Registered: Sep 2000
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Do My Job For Me, volume 9

This time, we're looking for a values/philosophy emphasis.

Resolved: to better protect civil liberties, community standards ought to take precedence over conflicting national standards.

Exemplify. Discuss. Resolve.

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02-01-2005 03:51 AM

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Talarohk
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For this to truly work well to protect civil liberties, I think one must assume that the individuals in the communities are free and capable of moving to different communities relatively easily. Otherwise, discrimination and harassment by a community against individuals with values at variance with the community values seems very likely.

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02-01-2005 06:45 AM

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GimpyDivo
I DRIVE WOMEN CRAZY

Registered: Oct 2002
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its obvious that basic rights and liberties are too important to be left in the hands of the plebs. they must be told how to vote and how to make policy in order for the government to survive. their airwaves must be censored in order for them to make informed decisions.

duh.

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02-01-2005 07:37 AM

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Smug Git
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Re: Do My Job For Me, volume 9

quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
This time, we're looking for a values/philosophy emphasis.

Resolved: to better protect civil liberties, community standards ought to take precedence over conflicting national standards.

Exemplify. Discuss. Resolve.

It seems to me that to hold that community standards should take precedence over 'national standards' in general, you have to be a moral relativist. The codification of standards at the largest level possible (national, or international through treaty agreements) suits a moral absolutist approach, because it reduces the chance that 'wrong', relative to that standard, will be done (or at the least it allows for legal redress).

I would think that most people would say that it is better to pick a smallish set of 'fundamental standards' at the highest level and then localise other standards if need be, but subject to the pre-eminence of the fundamental standards (this is basically the model in the US and the whole of the EU, pretty much). I personally would probably favour 'fundamental standards' of some sort and then allow for some local standards but, pretty much, make them rare.

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02-01-2005 05:07 PM

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Coincidence
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Yeah, why does the statement imply that communities automatically provide better liberty protection?

I think the use of standards depends on what kind of oppression you are fighting.

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02-01-2005 09:08 PM

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mmmtravis
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Community standards are wonderful tools for protecting civil liberties, Coincidence. For example, it could've never been condoned nationally, but the good townsfolk of Salem, MA did what was necessary to purge their peaceful lands of Satan worshipping witches. This type of "hands on" community involvement is beneficial to nearly everyone! Furthermore, look at all these pleasant southern communities forced into defending themselves against the terrible accusations of the heathen scientists trying to indoctrinate the children of others with these kookie evolutionary theories that completely disregard faith and human dignity. Your national government just won't stand up for you on these issues, it is too busy pandering to its citizens of lesser judgement. Why should a fast-talking city man in a suit, who lives thousands of miles away from me, have the authority to tell me and my family what is right, and what is wrong? Assuming that most communities are as educated and thoughtful as mine, I personally feel standards should be assumed on a more local level.

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02-02-2005 01:44 AM

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Paint CHiPs
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quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
Yeah, why does the statement imply that communities automatically provide better liberty protection?

It's a debate topic. One team affirms the statement to be true, the other tries to argue it is untrue.

He is asking for values-oriented, philosophical justifications for either side.

Just out of curiosity Jr, have you ever actually been helped by these threads? They always seem to die off fast, which is a shame.

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02-02-2005 01:54 AM

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Thimbles worth of opinion
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The fact is, the best solutions are found in diversity. Ergo allowing a diversity of environs to exist makes for excellent case sudies of problems and for trials of new solutions. But when errors in the local environ continually manifest, than it is necessary for the rules of the larger set to enforce order upon the smaller set. Therefore the klu klux klan does not rule certain states any more because federal juristiction was imposed. However, it is still nice for states to excercise autonomy over how they social problems to test and see what works.

I could go on but I have a date.

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02-02-2005 10:32 AM

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Coincidence
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quote:
Originally posted by Paint CHiPs
It's a debate topic. One team affirms the statement to be true, the other tries to argue it is untrue.

So a better answer from me would have been: The question doesn't make any sense without a more specific context; thus perhaps the less helpful replies - with the exception of Travis, who brilliantly illuminates this forum with his timeless wisdom.

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02-02-2005 11:49 AM

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mmmtravis
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quote:
Originally posted by Coincidence
thus perhaps the less helpful replies - with the exception of Travis, who brilliantly illuminates this forum with his timeless wisdom.

Man, I know you think you're kidding... but I'm still touched, really.

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02-02-2005 12:45 PM

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CHiPsJr
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quote:
Originally posted by Paint CHiPs
It's a debate topic. One team affirms the statement to be true, the other tries to argue it is untrue.

One-on-one in this case.

quote:
Originally posted by Paint CHiPs
He is asking for values-oriented, philosophical justifications for either side.

Or just particular examples in which the conflict applies and which side they'd place us on. In this case, discussion of Jim Crow laws is of course relevant, but also polygamy, pornography and obscenity statutes, gay marriage, what have you. One of the weird aspects of this particular topic is that, while historically the communities have been more oppressive than the nation (Jim Crow); the more contemporary examples (medicinal marijuana, gay marriage) point towards a more repressive nation and tolerant communities. Witness Sullivan's sudden rediscoveryu of federalism...

quote:
Originally posted by Paint CHiPs
Just out of curiosity Jr, have you ever actually been helped by these threads? They always seem to die off fast, which is a shame.

I'm always helped at one level or another. I've stolen arguments from board members before, and even when nothing immediateoly useful pops up I get a sense of how smart people initially and viscerally react to the topic, which gives me an idea of what predispositions we're going to ahev to deal with fdrom our judges.

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02-02-2005 02:21 PM

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Mugtoe
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quote:
Originally posted by Thimbles worth of opinion
The fact is, the best solutions are found in diversity. Ergo allowing a diversity of environs to exist makes for excellent case sudies of problems and for trials of new solutions. ...

as long as people can vote with their feet and leave, I agree with this and think it a fundamental part of a great states' rights argument.

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02-02-2005 03:10 PM

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Smug Git
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But the state's rights argument still lies against the backdrop of a national standards mandate.

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02-02-2005 06:36 PM

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Smug Git
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Also, a patchwork of localised rules and standards makes doing business nationally a lot more expensive (of course, you have federal rules to contend with too, but at least you only have to consider them the once for the whole national business).

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02-02-2005 07:27 PM