Paint CHiPs
Viva Le Me
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Location Location
Posts: 26383 |
quote:
Originally posted by Thimbles worth of opinion:[/B]
I have a real problem with right wing politics.
To have an inclusive brand of democratic government one must practice the separation of church and state. The alternative being "One nation under CHRIST".
What I have been seeing as practiced by right wing politians is the practice of using the legislation of morality as a political platform.
I think you are confusing morality with "church". The separation of church and state does not mean that a representative should not do what he thinks is right if his opinions are formed by Christian dogma. It means to not legislate straight dogma. There is a BIG difference. This nation was severely founded on morallity formed based on Christian ideals. Read the Federalist papers sometime, or the fucking Constitution for that matter.
Saying "I want to pass a law that stops abortion" is not violating separation of church and state, numbnuts. Just because the reasons that a person may say that is based on Christian ideals is irrelevent really.
You are not saying you have a problem with people who do not separate church and state, though that is how you are trying to paint it. You have a problem with right wing ideals. Just say so. Don't hide behind some curtain of self-righteousness, as you claim they are.
You DISAGREE with them. They are doing nothing WRONG by expounding on their ideals, they are just doing something you disagree with, because you disagree with the ideals themselves.
There's a big difference. I disagree with Pat Buchanan, but he is doing nothing WRONG.
Do I have a problem with that. Yes and no. Thou shalt not kill is a moral that does need enforcement. Thou shalt not steal is another one.
But the morals I see being reflected in the right strategy are the ones involveing the empowerment of women and the empowerment of minorities.
What are you talking about here? Care to give some examples or something?
hmmmmm.
Well, let me try to GUESS at some examples.
By empowerment of women I assume you are talking mostly about abortion (if not please correct me). That's fair enough, I suppose, though not quite the intent nor the point of pro-lifers. It is my understanding that when a person doesn't believe in a right to have an abortion, they are not saying women do not have a right to do what they want to do, they are more saying that they do not have the right to take ANOTHER life, and just as you said that you believe "thou shall not kill" needs to be a commandment protected by law, to pro-lifers, this is the same thing. It has nothing to do with the empowerment of women. It has to do with taking a life. It has to do with taking rights away when they infringe on the rights of other humans, and the most basic right of all is the right to be BORN, to have LIFE. I am not pro-life, just playing devil's advocate here. Whether or not you consider a fetus to be a HUMAN is irrelevent. Pro-lifers do, and thus, from that perspective, abortion = murder. Again, just because you don't AGREE with them on that point does not mean that they are somehow trying to oppress anybody. Try to at least UNDERSTAND the other side before villifying them.
By oppression of minorties, what minorties are you speaking of? Racial issues? If that is the case, only in the most EXTREME cases is religion used to justify THAT. 99% of the Republican party will never say something like "Affirmative action is bad because the bible says the colored man is inferior". Of course, that is how many leftists, in their knee jerk reactions, see it, but again, it is always easier to villify than to understand.
If you are talking about homosexuals, then I agree with you. In my mind, the oppression of homosexuals is something that is inexcusible. But still, it is nothing that the Republican party has any sort of monopoly over. The discrimination of homosexuals has been going on since time began. You are right, the Republican party is backwards in many of its stances regarding homosexuality. But also, that is what THEY think is right, and they have every right to express that. I think they are wrong. They think I am wrong.
Also, they aren't quite as oppressive as you may think towards homosexuals. Mostly just the gays in the military and the same-sex marriages things, neither of which is a denial of any sort of basic right. And also, in states that have referendums as to whether or not same sex marriages should be illegal, those measures tend to fail by WIDE margins, crossing over party lines. Again, Republicans hold no monopoly in discrimination due to sexual orientation.
But again, they are probably the worst at it.
And I am disgusted because they divert attention from real issues by bringing up abortion and say the reason for doing so is god mandated. WTF happened to separating politics from church and state?
Again, see above. You are confusing separation of church and state with legislating morality. Entirely different animals there.
And when I say real issues I am talking about poverty, education, violence, etc.. A major portion of right wing platform was about the reform of national charecter. How? By tax cuts and shots of Bush reading a bible? Fuck off.
And how do the Democrats want to help women and minorities?
By Clinton promising to allow gays in the military (and then give up the fight when it got to hard), and shots of Al Gore kissing his wife? Fuck off.
You can find hypocrisy ANYWHERE, ESPECIALLY in politics. Republicans hold no monopoly on that either, so don't give me that shit.
Jesus forgives. Politians use the death pentalty, liberaly. Politians solve social problems by building more jails.
Jesus Takes care of the poor. Jesus takes care of the hungry. Politians cut welfare programs. Politians raise tutions. Politians support class distinctions.
Jesus doesn't care about profit. Politians care about capitalism.
Jesus cares about children. Politians care about gambling proceed, downward spiraling education, ritalin.
Jesus believes in turning the other cheek. Politians care about huge armies.
This may be too difficult to do point by point, as this is kinda of a convoluted rambling mess, so let me just make this general.
All of what you mentioned above would seem to indicate that the right wingers are NOT just bible bumping maniacs. That most issues are thought of not in terms of the bible, but in terms of real world implications and logisticalities, and only in EXTREME cases, where the issue really does strick a nerve with their religous convications, such as abortion, do they pull out the bible.
I'm not going to play the game of "Jesus said the homosexuality is wrong, and yet the liberals say it is a beautiful thing.". I could do that all day. If you go by what Jesus said, then all that OTHER stuff that you are whining about would be wrong as well.
But I'll do one for you:
Liberals believe in the freedom to express religion, except when that religion is Christianity.
Also, each of these issues, while they may be the embodiement of evil to your pea-brain, have MANY different reasonings and issues revolving around them. Republicans do not believe in the death penalty just because they like to watch people die, just like pro-choice people do not believe in abortion because they want to kill babies. So trying to paint them into a corner and call all these policies you don't like as "evil" is ignorant, just as ignorant as when the right wingers do it to you (and I am not blind, I know they do). What is wrong with cutting welfare? The only answer you have for those seem to be "I don't like it" or "jesus would not believe in it"
Sounds a little hypocritical if you ask me.
And also, let me add a disclaimer. I know that the right wing does the same thing. They villify the pro-choicers, the gay rights activisits, and all that. They substitute "baby killer" for "pro-choice" just as much as leftists substitute "gun nut" for "a person who does not want further gun control".
I am just pointing out that you doing the same thing in an attempt to prove THEIR hyprocrisy only proves your own.
So let us cut the bullshit. Capitalism is about survival of the fittest. It is about economic evolution. It's what right wingers believe in.
Errrr, yes. Agreed. Good for them.
If the bible meant something to them they would be reflecting that in their legislation.
I understand what you are trying to get at here. The hypocrisy of using the bible to justify some morality but then ignoring it when it comes to other issues. That is a fair criticism I suppose. However, if you have a problem with using the bible or religion or whatever to justify any political action, then why would you be using it to show the narrow mindness of some actions when not used, and then the narrow mindedness of actions when they DO use it? That does not mean anything other than you believe the right wingers are narrow-minded. Again, just say it. Don't act like you have some sort of brilliant point outside of "I don't like the right wing".
I could point to a MILLION examples of hypocrisy on the other side of the spectrum.
For example, communism believes in stopping the power hungry and the wealthy elite being in charge by creating a temporary dictatorship.
But I'm not going to play that game.
And this brings me to the BIG tax cut of the current repulican government. The justification for the tax cut was that this was the fair way. That the ones to benefit most were the rich was not important. What is fair is fair.
Why is it "fair" for the rich to pay a much higher percentage in taxes than the poor? Because they CAN? WTF?! Oh yeah, that sounds fair to me. Why is it "fair" to punish a businessman for succeeding? The rich have money, the poor have money, that is no reason to take more of one man's money than any other man's, at least if you are using "fair" as a standard here.
Why is it "fair" to take my money and put it into programs that I do not believe in and did not vote for?
Being rich is not a biblical mandate. It is not a blessing. "It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it is for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven."
The rich should pay more. They are able to shoulder more. They should be happy to bear more because it gets them closer to God no?
But it's not fair.
Christianity has not been based on the principles of fairness, as a matter of fact, the sinless one getting crucified was rather unfair.
I suppose. If that were the case though, the poor should be perfectly happy to have their health and their religion, and tax breaks and social programs should not be important to them.
And again, Jesus would not support TAKING a disappropriate amount of money from the rich. He would want them to GIVE it, like through charity and private funds and things of that sort. Why would it be biblically fair for the government to FORCE him to do so against his own free will? And again, why is it fair that one man has to pay more percentage-wise than any other man? Because they can is not a good enough reason for me, nor is it the answer if you are trying to be "fair" or even "biblical".
People villify the rich just as they do the Republicans. What they fail to realize is that a large portion of the rich are hard working decent God-fearing Americans, just like a large portion of the poor.
That aside, is it fair that some are born into positions of power whereas others are born in poverty? Is it fair that some are enshired in areas of advancement dispite past indiscressions whereas others cannot recieve a pardon from the color of their skin? Is it fair to allow companies to poison millions of american citizens and put to death a mugger who murdered one?
"Oh Karl the world isn't fair!
It isn't and never will be!"
Life is not fair. It should be, but it is not. It is no more fair for these things to occur than it is for Tibet to be oppressed by China. But again, I am not really understanding what you are getting at with these examples.
Fuck it. If the right wing believed in the bible the major desire of the government would to insure that no-one lives in poverty and that the children, the sick, the elderly and all others would be kept in good health.
But of course, if they do that with the other biblical clauses of "anti-abortion" and "homosexuality is an abomination", you cry foul.
And again, the bible says nothing of the government's explicit mandate to do all these things. You are being just as hypocritical here as you accuse them of being.
But since there is no money in that and there is plenty of money in condemning activities and keeping guns in the hands of all who should be protected by their society, they use the bible in their photo oportunities.
I also think you are not only making broad generalizations, but also villifying them without taking an honest look at things.
"Sure, the extremists grab all the headlines, but the centrists do all the work."
---The Last Supper (ironically enough)
It makes me sick how often the right wing gets painted as "evil" and "narrow-minded" and all that shite. I hate people who hide behind a liberal mask and claim their ideas are somehow more "right" and "honest" and "open-minded" than those of the right wing. If you want to try to pull out some biblical standards, try "humility" for a change.
"Dad, he's not a nazi, he's a conservative, like half of America is conservative."
---The Birdcage
You do realize that don't you? That half of America is right wing. What makes them any more evil when they try to push their agenda? I don't mind if you disagree with them in open and honest dialouge, but that seems rarely to be the case, as people usually think that right wing ideals and beliefs are somehow "below" them. Gentlemen, this is a democracy. And the right wing would not be a force whatsoever if a helluva lot of people did not agree with what they said. And in a democracy, the people have a right to express their views via their representatives through political action and legislation, just as you do. And if those people are Christians, expect the actions and legislations to reflect that. It is not "wrong". Far from it. That is the way it should be, and you can eat a dick or fucking move if you don't agree with it.
Or you could just not VOTE for it.
But don't try to dismiss their opinions through villifying them. "Oh, they don't know what they are talking about!" Or "All right wing supports are rednecks and morons." Who sounds more ignorant?
If I were in the mood to make sweeping generalizations, I would say that the left wing is just as narrow-minded as the right wing. I see liberals bashing the right wing on a PERSONAL level much more than I see it coming from the right to the left. "Fucking bible-thumping bigots!" "Fucking rednecks!" "They just don't GET it!". I see it a lot on an issue by issue basis from the right wing, but I see it much more often as a sweeping generalization from the left.
Take CAL and Agoust. Both are articulate. Both are smart. CAL is a conservative, Agoust is a die hard democart. CAL constantly gets jibed for being a "gun nut" or a "redneck" or whatever, but nobody bothers Agoust about his beliefs. Why is that?
And you talk to me about hypocrisy.
Here is what it comes down to.
People have a way of seeing things differently. Of having different views. Of believing different things. And *gasp* sometimes you will not agree with the beliefs or ideals of other people. That does not make THEM worse or more narrow minded than you. That does not mean that "well obviously, they are morons and I have the right bead on things." And it certainly does not make them worse people than you.
I disagree with people all the time, often heatedly. I think I am right and they are wrong. For the record, I hate Democrats and Republicans pretty much equally. But at the end of the day, I do not think them worse than me simply because we do not share the same beliefs. I disagree with Redguard ENTIRELY on many of his ideas, but respect him immensely. And yet, when it comes to a left wing nut disagreeing with a right wing nut, It's the right winger who is the close-minded one.
I see it everyday when it comes to the villification of the right wing. That is a burden that the left wing has not had to bear nearly as much, and it really gets me. I do not believe in gun control for a LOT of reasons. That does not make me a gun nut. CAL is no redneck, MstrG is not narrow-minded.
Learn to at least RESPECT differing views rather than just write them off as opinions from nutcases.
Here's a thought for you. Is it possible to have a democratic communism? Communism attempted to shape the minds of the people away from belief and individualism but take care of the people as well. Democracy is the expression of individual beliefs and freedoms in a political arena.Capitalism is just an economic system. It's not democracy in action. It is supressing democracy by packageing the crowds and haveing the individuals sued and shot.
I'm not going to go into the whole communism thing, but let me add that capitalism is NOT the antithesis of democracy. Far from it. Whether you see it or not, it is not Big Business that controls things, it is the CONSUMER. If everybody stops buying from a company, that company dies. If everybody starts buying a particular product, business will make more of that product, more products like it, and more developments on it. YOU control the economy, not Big Business. It's not my fault you don't see or utilize that. It is YOUR fault, not the system's (whoo hoo, that is flame bait if I ever heard it!)
And another generalization that galls me is the one that I get from socialists. They ask me to accept the fact that Communism has never really been tried before, that the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, whatever, are just bastardizations.
But when I say that about America and true capitalism, I get hounded for it.
I guess it's an easy way to slip out of having to accept your failures and still pin your opponent's to them.
At any rate Bush should have been shot down with some of the stuff I brought up. Gore could use a listen too. Please all politians, never show the bible in your campaigns again. The only political figure who had a platform that accurately reflected the biblical christian goal was Martin Luther King. Stick to capitalism, you at least know those scriptures.
What think y'all?
I dunno, the Bible seems a pretty good standard to me, if taken the right way. What is your problem example? Is it the hypocrisy? Or is it just Christian values in general?
I only ask that people try and UNDERSTAND the opinions they say they disagree with, rather than just write them off due to general prejudices.
Oh well. I'm done now.
Cya.
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11-27-2000 10:49 AM
