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Goatboy
the anticlimax
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187 |
I am a glutton for punishment.
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12-22-2005 04:10 PM |
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bunkum
Sanditon
Registered: Jul 2000
Location:
Posts: 4501 |
The only way to truly be free, plum, is to die, you fucking slave of the man.
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"Good God! What kind of hallucinogen leaves you high enough to be blissfully unaware of a genital amputation but lucid enough to grease up a pan and cook up a wiener? "
--pervscan.com
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12-23-2005 12:56 AM |
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Talarohk
The Pedanticator
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 5270 |
Out of curiosity, plum, are you using the term "niggers" for provocative effect, or because you really believe that that is the best term to use?
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12-23-2005 12:59 AM |
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plum
Last Man
Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 2071 |
quote:
Originally posted by Talarohk
Out of curiosity, plum, are you using the term "niggers" for provocative effect, or because you really believe that that is the best term to use?
To be honest, I just finished reading Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" (for about the fifth time), and his writing style and general impression influenced this blog. I don't think Conrad used the word in a derogatory manner. It's meant to be descriptive and righteously ignorant, not racist.
That said, I do have a multifaceted, complex racism against many different people all over the world.
You should be proud of your biases and your ignorance, Tal. It's part of what builds and maintains your character. If you let your mind sink too far into the murky depths of conformist thought, you risk losing much of your drive and passion for things.
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12-23-2005 01:32 AM |
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plum
Last Man
Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 2071 |
quote:
Originally posted by bunkum
The only way to truly be free, plum, is to die, you fucking slave of the man.
I disagree.
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12-23-2005 01:33 AM |
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SimpleSimon
?
Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 17499 |
quote:
Originally posted by plum
I disagree.
Throughout history, many slaves have embraced their masters and lovingly licked their feet. You fit right in.
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When I was young I used to read about the decline of Western civilization, and I decided it was something I would like to make a contribution to. — George Carlin
Last edited by SimpleSimon on 12-23-2005 at 01:53 AM
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12-23-2005 01:49 AM |
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Goatboy
the anticlimax
Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187 |
quote:
Originally posted by plum
To be honest, I just finished reading Conrad's "Heart of Darkness" (for about the fifth time), and his writing style and general impression influenced this blog.
It did?
Where?
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12-23-2005 01:46 PM |
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Mugtoe
Cuddly Puppy
Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 18998 |
there's nothin quite so amusing as a young man who thinks he's thought of something new.
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quote:
Originally posted by magnolia
never waste a hardon, trust a fart or pass up a breath mint when offered.
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12-23-2005 03:44 PM |
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Talarohk
The Pedanticator
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 5270 |
quote:
Originally posted by plum
You should be proud of your biases and your ignorance, Tal. It's part of what builds and maintains your character. If you let your mind sink too far into the murky depths of conformist thought, you risk losing much of your drive and passion for things.
I'd rather try and base my character on openmindedness, tolerance, courtesy, and wisdom, actually. I am all too aware that what I have now is mostly biases and ignorance, and that such is really all I will probably ever have. However, my aim is to keep striving to rise above them, rather than enshrine them as the defining structure for myself. Is that what you meant by "righteous ignorance"?
It may be wisdom on your part, I suppose, to give up that struggle, but I'm not ready to do that yet.
As to conformist thought causing one to lose one's passion and drive: I agree that there is some inherent value in diversity of opinion on issues, but I don't think that agreeing with the majority is inherently conformist or deadening. The majority opinion should not be adopted simply because it is the dominant one, and giving up critical thought and curiosity to fit in leads to stagnation. On that, we agree. However, simply poking a sharp stick at conventional etiquette, without some good reason (like calling dark-skinned people "niggers" just to stir things up) is not valuable, it's just offensive. That's why I asked why you had chosen to do so.
To be honest, I've never read Conrad (to my shame), so I'll take your word for it that he didn't mean the term to be offensive. However, for you to use it like that is rude. You are not ignorant, and you have access to a much bigger descriptive vocabulary.
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12-23-2005 04:05 PM |
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Mugtoe
Cuddly Puppy
Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 18998 |
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quote:
Originally posted by magnolia
never waste a hardon, trust a fart or pass up a breath mint when offered.
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12-23-2005 04:25 PM |
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ignatz mouse
Bionic Rodent of Doom
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Ohraygun
Posts: 10794 |
quote:
When I was an adolescent, too young and dumb to see what her error was
your neverending fantasy that you've reached the age of 16 and the wisdom of 10.
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12-23-2005 04:40 PM |
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plum
Last Man
Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 2071 |
quote:
Originally posted by Talarohk
[B]I'd rather try and base my character on openmindedness, tolerance, courtesy, and wisdom, actually. I am all too aware that what I have now is mostly biases and ignorance, and that such is really all I will probably ever have. However, my aim is to keep striving to rise above them, rather than enshrine them as the defining structure for myself. Is that what you meant by "righteous ignorance"?
It may be wisdom on your part, I suppose, to give up that struggle, but I'm not ready to do that yet.
Well it's nice to see everyone picked up on my jovial yuletide mood, rather than going about nitpicking negativity- this blog was actually my most positive one so far; it was meant to be brimming with opitimism, a triumphant celebration over my good fortune. Even Mug is resorting to his tried and true trump speech. I wasn't even trying to be original this time Mug! That was all about me! So take your pompous ass elsewhere/
Tal: Part of the struggle of forming a character involves acquiring value judgements. You seem to prefer being a spectator to an actor, which is fine, however I believe the watching and listening ought to be a means to an end not an end in itself. I think that is where we disagree fundamentally. It's so when you do act, you have a firm set of values on which to decide your actions. The basic analogy would be aiming before shooting.
Your philosophy of relentlessly seeking out objectivity is not a good one, because it is based on the illusion that some heavenly pure human objectivity exists. But isn't that just a collection of various biases? And aren't you sacrificing something as you strive for greater objectivity? Human experience is itself nothing more than the sum of collective biases, which arise from inner collective drives for various forms of power in the world. It seems to me that those who aim for a life of learning are largely the victims of those whose lives and ideals they study.
I wasn't using the word niggers to try and stir things and be edgy. I don't even believe that my use of the word was racist. It was being descriptive, as I said. Within their cliques, the black people who hang out in the parks in San Fransisco inhabit a very interesting and vibrant world I'm sure, but I never cared to enter it when I was there, so to me they were just niggers.
quote:
To be honest, I've never read Conrad (to my shame), so I'll take your word for it that he didn't mean the term to be offensive.
I'd highly recommend it, especially if you haven't already. It could be because I'm a dumbfuck, but I was only able to really appreciate and understand Heart of Darkness after about the fifth reading.
Last edited by plum on 12-23-2005 at 05:59 PM
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12-23-2005 05:55 PM |
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Talarohk
The Pedanticator
Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Vista, CA
Posts: 5270 |
quote:
Originally posted by plum
Well it's nice to see everyone picked up on my jovial yuletide mood, rather than going about nitpicking negativity- this blog was actually my most positive one so far; it was meant to be brimming with opitimism, a triumphant celebration over my good fortune.
Point taken. You do sound happy in your entry, and I am glad to hear that. SF is indeed quite a lovely place, and I hope you enjoy being there.
quote:
Tal: Part of the struggle of forming a character involves acquiring value judgements. You seem to prefer being a spectator to an actor, which is fine, however I believe the watching and listening ought to be a means to an end not an end in itself. I think that is where we disagree fundamentally. It's so when you do act, you have a firm set of values on which to decide your actions. The basic analogy would be aiming before shooting.
Interesting, and indeed, one of my biggest problems is that I frequently find myself paralyzed. It may be because I have placed such a high value upon "seeing both sides" of a conflict that I can no longer make a decision about which side to support.
Would you say that you believe that it is better to choose a side with vigor, accepting the risk that you will come to dislike what you have done later, than to refrain from choosing? I can respect that. Indeed, it does seem to make it more likely that you will end up having had a bigger effect on things.
quote:
Your philosophy of relentlessly seeking out objectivity is not a good one, because it is based on the illusion that some heavenly pure human objectivity exists. But isn't that just a collection of various biases? And aren't you sacrificing something as you strive for greater objectivity? Human experience is itself nothing more than the sum of collective biases, which arise from inner collective drives for various forms of power in the world. It seems to me that those who aim for a life of learning are largely the victims of those whose lives and ideals they study.
I'll agree that one does sacrifice a lot of certainty by devoting oneself to learning. I'll also agree that human experience is largely driven by actions based on bias and thirst for power. However, I question whether or not that truth implies that we should hold that model up as the desirable way to live.
Your point about scholars largely becoming passive responders to those who are more active, even if those actions do not seem rational to the scholar, is interesting (and disturbing; I hadn't thought of it that way before). Do you think there is no value to study and science, or that there is a balance to be struck between study and action?
quote:
I wasn't using the word niggers to try and stir things and be edgy. I don't even believe that my use of the word was racist. It was being descriptive, as I said. Within their cliques, the black people who hang out in the parks in San Fransisco inhabit a very interesting and vibrant world I'm sure, but I never cared to enter it when I was there, so to me they were just niggers.
But you are certainly aware of the fact that "niggers" is a highly charged word. I am curious about why you chose to use that term, as opposed to some other. You seem to choose your words very carefully, and I don't believe that you were simply being descriptive.
I'm actually not trying to say "Hey, plum is a racist scumbag!" or anything like that, although using a term like "nigger" is rude and provocative, whether or not you intend it to be. Calling dark-skinned people "niggers" definitely affiliates you with a certain side, to use the terms from above, and I know you are smart enough to know that at least as well as I do. Is that the circle in which you want to be included?
quote:
I'd highly recommend it, especially if you haven't already. It could be because I'm a dumbfuck, but I was only able to really appreciate and understand Heart of Darkness after about the fifth reading.
I'd like to give it a try sometime. My wife knows a lot more about literature than I do, and she agrees that it is interesting.
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12-23-2005 06:19 PM |
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plum
Last Man
Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 2071 |
quote:
Originally posted by Talarohk
[B]Would you say that you believe that it is better to choose a side with vigor, accepting the risk that you will come to dislike what you have done later, than to refrain from choosing? I can respect that. Indeed, it does seem to make it more likely that you will end up having had a bigger effect on things.
If you reduce this question down to it's basics, I'd say that philosophically it's better to dive into something than establish a distance because the diving needn't be equated with prejudging and ignorance; on the contrary, the diving implies that one has progressed beyond the stage of doubt and confusion, which is overall a good thing. It recalls that proverb "better to have loved and lost...". I'm with the camp that would argue in defence of human excesses. The destruction and misery with which they tend to be associated is part of the price to be paid for having them. Another quote that ignatz liked: "between misery and death, give me misery."
quote:
Your point about scholars largely becoming passive responders to those who are more active, even if those actions do not seem rational to the scholar, is interesting (and disturbing; I hadn't thought of it that way before). Do you think there is no value to study and science, or that there is a balance to be struck between study and action?
When it comes to science, that is the action, or ought to be. Science and technology have had a greater impact on human history than any political movement in that it's what makes these movements possible. It is in fact the politicians and businessmen that are the spectators to the scientists and engineers.
quote:
But you are certainly aware of the fact that "niggers" is a highly charged word. I am curious about why you chose to use that term, as opposed to some other. You seem to choose your words very carefully, and I don't believe that you were simply being descriptive.
That could reflect the difference in our lifestyles or locations. Obviously it's more highly charged if spoken to black people in person, but I hear it spoken in the streets in Canada occasionally among whites. Used in verse, I don't consider it that "highly charged". It's also adopted various meanings other than the racist one.
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12-24-2005 01:39 AM |
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ignatz mouse
Bionic Rodent of Doom
Registered: Mar 2004
Location: Ohraygun
Posts: 10794 |
some would disagree with plum's expert assessment of the meaning of "nigger".
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12-24-2005 04:42 AM |
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Mugtoe
Cuddly Puppy
Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 18998 |
quote:
Originally posted by ignatz mouse
some scholars and writers would disagree with Plum the Scholar. this person, for example, thinks conrad was a thoroughgoing racist: http://www.chss.montclair.edu/engli.../achebehod.html
(chinua achebe, writer of 'things fall apart'). plum, of course, is an expert on conrad.
I've read Achebe's books, and I'd rather read Conrad, thanks. I wouldn't disagree with Achebe's assertion, however.
And plum, my responses generally stay the same, because you generally stay the same. I also enjoy it for its own sake, however. It never gets old for me, and that's all that really matters. You give me fresh opportunities constantly to just be a dick to you whether you deserve it or not and regardless of how it makes me look to other people. It's just a perverse pleasure for me. no biggee. I'd likely do it even if it didn't get under yer skin. Yer not even a real person to me. yer more of a cartoon character. I can take shots at you all day long, and you just hop right back up.
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quote:
Originally posted by magnolia
never waste a hardon, trust a fart or pass up a breath mint when offered.
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12-24-2005 05:09 AM |
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plum
Last Man
Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 2071 |
On the contrary, methinks you're the one with the thin skin- stretching all the way back to an ad hoc drunken pm I sent you- that kicked off your years-long vendetta.
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12-24-2005 11:09 AM |
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SimpleSimon
?
Registered: Dec 2002
Location:
Posts: 17499 |
quote:
Originally posted by Mugtoe
... I can take shots at you all day long, and you just hop right back up.
Weebles May Wobble, But They Won't Fall Down!!!
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When I was young I used to read about the decline of Western civilization, and I decided it was something I would like to make a contribution to. — George Carlin
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12-24-2005 01:26 PM |
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Mugtoe
Cuddly Puppy
Registered: Oct 2001
Location:
Posts: 18998 |
quote:
Originally posted by plum
On the contrary, methinks you're the one with the thin skin- stretching all the way back to an ad hoc drunken pm I sent you- that kicked off your years-long vendetta.
vendetta? for you asking me why I kept giving you UH pernts and thinkin I thought you were gay or somethin like that? all that ever got outta me was a lot of head scratchin. it did, however, identify you as a bit of a loon. yer the annea of yer day, kiddo, and you just never quite got that. I think most everybody else did, whether they held on to the idea like I did or not. and yet you still seem to take it as a badge of some sort.
yep, I treat you like this because you intimidate me, puddin.
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quote:
Originally posted by magnolia
never waste a hardon, trust a fart or pass up a breath mint when offered.
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12-24-2005 05:30 PM |
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plum
Last Man
Registered: Jan 2004
Location:
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Have you considered the possibility that you unconciously seek out people who are naturally contemplative, to set them against your set ways, because it makes you feel more secure and helps your self esteem if you always have someone to patronize?
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12-24-2005 07:40 PM |
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