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Paint CHiPs
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The Libertarian Democrat

An interesting post from kos of dailykos infamy, that I disagree with on a lot of fronts. But not on the current chicness of the topic, and his examples (Tester who just pulled off a landslide upset, Schweitzer, Webb, etc), and the general trend towards more liberty-friendly consciousness in the Democratic party, or at least significant parts of it. As I said, I think he makes a poor case for it--but I think a good case along his lines could be made, and I'd be interested in a book about it.

Anyway, for the sake of pissing off CHiPsJr:




The Libertarian Dem
by kos
Wed Jun 07, 2006 at 10:15:50 AM PDT

It's no secret that I look to the Mountain West for the future of the Democratic Party, people like Brian Schweitzer and Jon Tester. But I also look to candidates like Jim Webb in Virginia and Paul Hackett in Ohio.

And what is the common thread amongst these candidates?

They are all Libertarian Democrats.

Ack, the "L" word! But hear me out.

Traditional "libertarianism" holds that government is evil and thus must be minimized. Any and all government intrusion is bad. While practical libertarians (as opposed to those who waste their votes on the Libertarian Party) have traditionally aligned themselves with the Republicans, it's clear that the modern GOP has no qualms about trampling on personal liberties. Heck, it's become their raison d' etre.

The problem with this form of libertarianism is that it assumes that only two forces can infringe on liberty -- the government and other individuals.

The Libertarian Democrat understands that there is a third danger to personal liberty -- the corporation. The Libertarian Dem understands that corporations, left unchecked, can be huge dangers to our personal liberties.

Libertarian Dems are not hostile to government like traditional libertarians. But unlike the liberal Democrats of old times (now all but extinct), the Libertarian Dem doesn't believe government is the solution for everything. But it sure as heck is effective in checking the power of corporations.

In other words, government can protect our liberties from those who would infringe upon them -- corporations and other individuals.

So in practical terms, what does a Libertarian Dem look like? A Libertarian Dem rejects government efforts to intrude in our bedrooms and churches. A Libertarian Dem rejects government "Big Brother" efforts, such as the NSA spying of tens of millions of Americans. A Libertarian Dem rejects efforts to strip away rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights -- from the First Amendment to the 10th. And yes, that includes the 2nd Amendment and the right to bear arms.

So far, this isn't much different than what a traditional libertarian believes. Here is where it begins to differ (and it shouldn't).

A Libertarian Dem believes that true liberty requires freedom of movement -- we need roads and public transportation to give people freedom to travel wherever they might want. A Libertarian Dem believes that we should have the freedom to enjoy the outdoor without getting poisoned; that corporate polluters infringe on our rights and should be checked. A Libertarian Dem believes that people should have the freedom to make a living without being unduly exploited by employers. A Libertarian Dem understands that no one enjoys true liberty if they constantly fear for their lives, so strong crime and poverty prevention programs can create a safe environment for the pursuit of happiness. A Libertarian Dem gets that no one is truly free if they fear for their health, so social net programs are important to allow individuals to continue to live happily into their old age. Same with health care. And so on.

The core Democratic values of fairness, opportunity, and investing in our nation and people very much speak to the concept of personal liberties -- an open society where success is predicated on the merit of our ideas and efforts, unduly burdened by the government, corporate America, or other individuals. And rather than always get in the way, government can facilitate this.

Of course, this also means that government isn't always the solution to the nation's problems. There are times when business-government partnerships can be extremely effective (such as job retraining efforts for displaced workers). There are times when government really should butt out (like a great deal of small-business regulation). Our first proposed solution to a problem facing our nation shouldn't be more regulation, more government programs, more bureaucracy.

The key here isn't universal liberty from government intrusion, but policies that maximize individual freedom, and who can protect those individual freedoms best from those who would infringe.

I am very much a Libertarian Dem, and this is exactly what my next book will be about. It's progressivism for a new century. And that's what this new breed of Democrat is building in the Mountain West and Virginia and Ohio.


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Old Post 06-08-2006 04:24 AM
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Trenchant_Troll
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And here I was thinking that this was going to be a confession thread.

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Old Post 06-08-2006 04:30 PM
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CHiPsJr
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Yeah, it's a piss-poor case. It's akin to saying "Without a workforce which will do their bidding, people's liberty is restricted by the scope of their own individual abilities; hence, true Libertarianism entitles me to own slaves."

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Old Post 06-08-2006 04:38 PM
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Paint CHiPs
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quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
Yeah, it's a piss-poor case. It's akin to saying "Without a workforce which will do their bidding, people's liberty is restricted by the scope of their own individual abilities; hence, true Libertarianism entitles me to own slaves."


Well, it's certainly not internally consistent, if that's what you mean, but then again The Libertarian Republican was never that either, but I wouldn't say he did more harm than good (though ultimately he became irrelevent) or didn't exist.

I'm less concerned with litmus testing it though (not that, btw, yours isn't a point well worth taking); what is interesting, to me, is the matter of emphasis, and that, it seems to me, is for real. There are centrist Dems in the Lieberman/Warner/Clinton/Biden vein, and that's one thing (though I'd argue that Lieberman is less centrist than syncophant, but that's another argument). And then there are Democrats like Schwietzer, Feingold, and a handful of others, which are starting to become a new breed. I think, on this, kos has it right. I've said before that in my opinion, if the Democrats find a new, powerful voice (big "if"), it will be along one of two lines. Grassroots unapologetic progressivism of the Howard Dean/Gore 2.0/Air America variety, or firebrand Libertarian-emphasis populism, of the Schweitzer/Feingold vien. Kos, in his work, that post, and the upcoming book he mentioned, seems to me to be throwing in with the former--which is good, if you ask me. The Democratic base could do far worse than throwing in with the Schweitzers of the world. And, even if that doesn't manifest itself right away (Feingold 08!), I will be well pleased if control of the Democratic party is gradually wrestled away from the Kerrys, Clintons, and Pelosis and starts falling to the Feingolds, Reids, Schweitzers, etc. That will be a good sign for the Democrats, a bad sign for the Republicans (or maybe a good sign, in the long run, if the Dems start picking up the Perot independents and Libertarian moderates and the Republicans are forced to sit and stew with the Dobsons and DeLays and Schiavos and FMAs), and a good direction for the country, if you ask me.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 05:23 AM
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Paint CHiPs
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Which, btw, leads me to my new Best Case Scenario for the next two cycles:

Dems make big gains in 06, but don't retake either house.

In 08, the Republicans nominate Allen, Dems nominate Feingold, McCain goes independent, and the GOP loses both houses.

Booyah.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 05:25 AM
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Trenchant_Troll
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Heh.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 05:30 AM
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Paint CHiPs
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Oh, I don't think it'll happen that way. But it'd be great for all of us if it did.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 05:35 AM
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Thimbles worth of opinion
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quote:
Originally posted by CHiPsJr
Yeah, it's a piss-poor case. It's akin to saying "Without a workforce which will do their bidding, people's liberty is restricted by the scope of their own individual abilities; hence, true Libertarianism entitles me to own slaves."


No no no. Libertarians believe in the right to own sweatshops. Slaves make for too much responsibility.

PS. I thought the article above was quite good.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 10:26 AM
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Smug Git
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If those people sell themselves innto slavery of their own free will (say, because they have no chance of eating, otherwise) then why should a Libertarian object?

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Old Post 06-09-2006 11:59 AM
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Thimbles worth of opinion
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Indeed. We should surrender our roads and our power utilities from the evil draconian governent to that most libertarian of institutions, Enron. Then we can let the market decide what tolls to pay on which roads and what rates to pay on the luxury we call energy.

Utopia could be quickly realized if only we invested all things into the sphere of unhindered private owership. The only reason for not doing so is obstinacy.

You will be assimilated.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 05:20 PM
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Talarohk
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In the libertarian free market, the idea is that emplyers are free to seek the best people they can get for the least money. Fine and good. The theory is that the power of the employer is balanced by the ability of the employee to freely market him or herself, and to leave a job or refuse to take it if the terms are unacceptable.
However, that only works when the employee really is free to do so, and has the mobility and choices such that they really do have multiple opportunities, and can choose the best one. In such a scenario, there is a strong incentive for the employer--the one with more capital and power, possibly--to arrange the situation to minimize the employee's mobility and choices.

I suspect that the employers--the ones with the capital and the power--will do so in a free market as best they can. That removes the only advantage of the employee, and maximizes the employer's ability to set the terms of the employment to his or her advantage.

That's why I think that, even in a free market, there is a need for some minimal intervention to prevent such an occurrence.

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Jazzer
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Give me examples of how an employer limits mobility and/or job options.

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Hawley Griffin
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzer
Give me examples of how an employer limits mobility and/or job options.


buys the competition, "work for me or starve"

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Smug Git
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzer
Give me examples of how an employer limits mobility and/or job options.


Fire anyone that applies for another job and make it know that's what will happen (this, of course, actually happens, but presumably at higher level jobs more than lower level ones)? Contracts that don't let you work in the same industry for anyone else for a year or more? Employers can collude with each other, too, to keep wages down (I suspect that may be illegal under some current laws, but would happen more in an unregulated market).

Most of that stuff would work much better in a weak jobs market or on people who don't have many transferrable skills. One might well point out that that is their fault to let themselves get into that situation.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 06:18 PM
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Thimbles worth of opinion
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quote:
Originally posted by Jazzer
Give me examples of how an employer limits mobility and/or job options.


Employers can hire exclusively from a dispatch company which centralizes the pool of employees and prevents labor competition.

Employers collaberate to cut benefits to reduce expenses. (Or cut full time positions to reduce benefit obligations.) Those businesses who don't collaberate, lose competitive advantage.

Employers hire illegal immigrants who have no legal status, therefore no legal protection. Legal employees have to accept concessions if they want to keep their job.

Outsourceing.

Those, just off the top of my head, are things I've seen.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 06:28 PM
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CHiPsJr
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Or: you can have the government require people to provide a service at whatever price the government deems fair, and then deny them the ability to practice their trade if they don't do so to the government's satisfaction.

Sounds a hell of a lot more restrictive to me.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 11:40 PM
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Smug Git
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I am bemused by the almost universal acceptance of the minimum wage in America. Often from the same people that deride socialism elsewhere (in nations that have had a minimum wage for far less time than have the US).

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CHiPsJr
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I was thinking of centrally controlled medical care, actually. But yes, many of the same concerns apply to the minimum wage.

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Old Post 06-09-2006 11:52 PM
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Smug Git
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The governments at state and Federal level do appear to control everything medical apart from the price. Which is insane.

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PeristalticMove
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i disagree

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Smug Git
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If you like government control of everything but spiralling prices, it makes a lot of sense, I guess.

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PeristalticMove
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who cares if promiscuity is under government control?
control my ass

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