Registered: Feb 2003
Location: Oceanside, CA
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Tal Tales
Yes, sir.

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Registered: Apr 2005
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the only relevant difference between you and them is confidence. a marine is most probably just some dumbfuck kid who couldn't think of anything better than to join the army. it's just confidence, tal.

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Registered: Apr 2004
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Civilians remind them of the futility of their existence.

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i thought bullets did

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You nailed it pretty well, Tal. The basic mindset drilled into soldiers, most especially Marines, is not something much valued in civilian life. Esprit de corps, as they say. Willing submission of the individual to the needs and goals of the unit, on up the chain of command. No, in fact, you do not likely think the way they do, nor does your background and training in considered, reflective thought processes leading to decisions resemble the decisiveness soldiers are trained to employ.

It is considerably more than a question of confidence.

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Registered: Apr 2004
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Why would a confident soldier need esprit de corps drilled into him?

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Registered: Aug 2001
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Military success beyond the numbers you have requires organisation. Given that we're all tribal to some degree, it seems sensible to me to create a new tribe and have them buy into it; it makes them happy and it's a handy tool. It even attracts people to sign up in the first place, it seems to me. If you can't get your troops to place something else ahead of their self-interest, that's not going to be much of a military.

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Registered: Feb 2003
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I can understand the need for soldiers to be trained to obedience to authority and rapid decision-making--even the need for training to give up some individuality for the good of their unit, etc. An army composed of individual warrior-poet-scholars would be cool, but hard to organize, I would guess. However, it seems to come at the cost of alienation from civilians--at least, it's hard for a civilian like me to relate to them, and probably vice versa. Not that I am something that every human being should be able at all costs to relate to, but I doubt the reaction is mine alone.

Is that cost worthwhile? I think that some of the problems police officers run into might be related--they are trained to regard everyone as a potential threat, which makes it hard for them to trust--and be trusted by--civilians. In police, though, that relationship with everyday citizens is very important. Maybe not as much in soldiers, at least when on duty...I don't know. What do y'all think?

I guess that in Israel everyone serves in the military for a time. Does that make it easier for soldiers to relate to non-soldiers, since they have at least shared some of the experience?

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You think that troops are bad, you should try the immigration people at US airports.

I haven't found military types to be enormously different from the police (they also look out for each other, albeit to an extent somewhat beyond what their masters might like).

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Registered: Apr 2004
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Hell, I don't even know what dogcow meant with confidence. I think it's safe to say that many men enter the army with great personal confidence in their ability as soldiers.

The separation of citizen and soldier is probably inevitable, but there comes a time when the military has to ask who it's working for.
The implication of Tal's story seems to be that the soldier has a reason to not trust the citizen, and maybe vice versa. The solution is obvious: Soldiers must round up difficult citizens and put them in camps of their own, where their moral troubles would attain a kind of relevance.

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Its normal to be uncomfortable around people trained for violence and armed to execute it.

When you think about how they are trained that the civilian is an enemy it becomes even more obvious.

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Registered: Feb 2004
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does a martial arts master make you uncomfortable?

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I personally don't find the 'trained for violence' thing scary.

You want scary, go for a beer with CzechReck (he wasn't trained for it, he picked it up along the way).

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Registered: Feb 2003
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quote:

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Originally posted by Hawley Griffin
does a martial arts master make you uncomfortable?

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Registered: Apr 2004
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quote:

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Originally posted by Talarohk
So I don't find the fact that a person is skilled in combat--even lethally trained--to be an inherent problem. It's only a problem when I get the sense that I am a potential target of that training that I get nervous.

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How would a military base handle Halloween if a child decides to dress as a Taliban? It would be bloody I would think.

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Vote for OBAMA so Wonder can FLY and FUCK YOU HAWLEY!!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Coincidence
What do you think the purpose of the army is?

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Registered: Apr 2005
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I had a buddy in Kuwait during the first Bush war. In high school he was a happy-go-lucky kind of guy. Always one to try to be fair to everyone. Tried to get along with everyone. Was the first to help the weak. One of those all around good guys.

Anyway, he went to Kuwait for a year or more, and when he came back he had that thousand yard stare. It lasted about a month or so.

When he started to talk about it, he said that he was trained to think through battle situations, but that was all the thinking he had been trained to do. If you received an order, you didn't even question that you would complete your mission. You were trained to know that there was a way to complete it, and you'd find it.

He said he was often surprised at the things he was capable of toward his tour over there. Often without even thinking about it.

And he was in the army. He said the marines that he primarily was with were far worse.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Coincidence
What do you think the purpose of the army is?

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