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skinny
Bone-yard

Registered: May 2006
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Do we learn morals...

or are we taught them?

Scientists draw link between moralality and brains wiring.

"Most of us feel a rush of righteous certainty in the face of a moral challenge, an intuitive sense of right or wrong hard to ignore yet difficult to articulate."

I found this quite fascinating, had to look up a lot of the big words though.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117...=hpp_free_today

I think half the Asylumites must have some damage

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Last edited by skinny on 05-15-2007 at 11:34 PM

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:16 PM
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Mordecai
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"PAGE UNAVAILABLE

The document you requested either no longer exists or is not currently available.

You may use the "Back" button in your browser to return to the previous page, click Home to return to the WSJ.com home page, or access the Site Map.

To report this problem, contact Customer Service at onlinejournal@wsj.com."


Fascinating.

-m

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:19 PM
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skinny
Bone-yard

Registered: May 2006
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Scientists Draw Link
Between Morality
And Brain's Wiring
May 11, 2007; Page B1
Most of us feel a rush of righteous certainty in the face of a moral challenge, an intuitive sense of right or wrong hard to ignore yet difficult to articulate.

A provocative medical experiment conducted recently by neuroscientists at Harvard, Caltech and the University of Southern California strongly suggests these impulsive convictions come not from conscious principles but from the brain trying to make its emotional judgment felt.

Using neurology patients to probe moral reasoning, the researchers for the first time drew a direct link between the neuroanatomy of emotion and moral judgment.

Knock out certain brain cells with an aneurysm or a tumor, they discovered, and while everything else may appear normal, the ability to think straight about some issues of right and wrong has been permanently skewed. "It tells us there is some neurobiological basis for morality," said Harvard philosophy student Liane Young, who helped to conceive the experiment.


University of Southern California
Antonio Damasio
In particular, these people had injured an area that links emotion to cognition, located in the ventromedial prefrontal cortex several inches behind the brow. The experiment underscores the pivotal part played by unconscious empathy and emotion in guiding decisions. "When that influence is missing," said USC neuroscientist Antonio Damasio, "pure reason is set free."

Bringing medical tools to bear on moral questions, cognitive scientists are invading the territory of philosophers, theologians and clerics.

Usually, the human brain is of two minds when it comes to morality -- selfish but self-sacrificing, survivalist yet altruistic, calculating but also compassionate. Many dilemmas force a choice between the lesser of two evils, invoking a clash of competing neural networks, said Harvard neuroscientist Joshua Greene. Intuition tempers rational deliberation, especially when our actions to help some people will harm others.

At this level of inquiry, the mind is a special effect generated by neurons. Trust is a measure of neuropeptide levels, while fairness is an electromagnetic pattern in the right prefrontal cortex. Disrupt it with a strong magnet, as did University of Zurich researchers in 2006, and any sense of fair-dealing fades away like a radio station subsumed by static.



Is morality innate or learned? Join Robert Lee Hotz and other readers in a discussion.Not everyone reasons through moral conundrums in the same way, of course. Decisions hinge on family values, cultural heritage, legal traditions and religious beliefs -- or on the kind of brain you can bring to bear on the problem.

At the University of Iowa Hospital, the researchers singled out six middle-age men and women who had injured the same neural network in the prefrontal cortex. On neuropsychological tests, they seemed normal. They were healthy, intelligent, talkative, yet also unkempt, not so easily embarrassed or so likely to feel guilty, explained lead study scientist Michael Koenigs at the National Institutes of Health. They had lived with the brain damage for years but seemed unaware that anything about them had changed.

To analyze their moral abilities, Dr. Koenigs and his colleagues used a diagnostic probe as old as Socrates -- leading questions: To save yourself and others, would you throw someone out of a lifeboat? Would you push someone off a bridge, smother a crying baby, or kill a hostage?

All told, they considered 50 hypothetical moral dilemmas. Their responses were essentially identical to those of neurology patients who had different brain injuries and to healthy volunteers, except when a situation demanded they take one life to save others. For most, the thought of killing an innocent prompts a visceral revulsion, no matter how many other lives weigh in the balance. But if your prefrontal cortex has been impaired in the same small way by stroke or surgery, you would feel no such compunction in sacrificing one life for the good of all. The six patients certainly felt none. Any moral inhibition, whether learned or hereditary, had lost its influence.

The effort to understand the biology of morality is far from academic, said Georgetown University law professor John Mikhail. The search for an ethical balance of harm is central to medical debates on vaccine safety, organ transplants and clinical drug trials. It colors political disputes over embryonic stem-cell research, capital punishment and abortion. It is the essence of much military strategy and the underlying logic of terrorism.


Harvard News Office
Marc Hauser
For Harvard neuroscientist Marc Hauser, the moral-dilemma experiment is evidence the brain may be hard-wired for morality. Most moral intuitions, he said, are unconscious, involuntary and universal. To test the idea, he gathered data from thousands of people in hundreds of countries, all of whom display a remarkable unanimity in their basic moral choices. A shared innate capacity for morality may be responsible, he concluded.

Many scientists think his theory needs more proof. Since no two brains are exactly alike, each brain's ability to perceive right and wrong might be unique. The world is a thicket of moral maxims we readily ignore. Even so, it would be curious if, in the neural substrates of morality, we find common ground.



hope that helps
skinny

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:29 PM
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Mordecai
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It does, but you could try learning to properly add a link.

-m

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:31 PM
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skinny
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quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai
It does, but you could try learning to properly add a link.

-m



It is corrected now. I want to learn what i did wrong 'cause i aint got a clue.

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:35 PM
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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness

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quote:
Originally posted by skinny
It is corrected now. I want to learn what i did wrong 'cause i aint got a clue.


Well originally you had something that looked like what it looks like now which is: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117...=hpp_free_today, however, it only looks like that, but that's not actually the full URL, the the tags that the forum automatically adds around URLs also shortens excessively long ones. The actual url is: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB117884235401499300.html?mod=hpp_free_today.

At a guess, I'd say you copy and pasted from another forum or other similar site that shortens urls. What you should have done was either pasted from the address bar of the tab/page with the actual article, or right clicked on the link on the page you were on and selected 'copy link address' or whatever the equivalent option is on your browser.

If that isn't the case, I don't really know how you managed that.

-m

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:44 PM
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Talarohk
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Damasio is a major name in the field. Interesting stuff.

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Old Post 05-15-2007 11:53 PM
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Mordecai
destractivegodofdarkness

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I presume something more substantial will be (or has been) published on this, and that you might be able to give us more Tal?

-m

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Old Post 05-16-2007 12:02 AM
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Talarohk
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I haven't really been following this area, especially since I switched to teaching only. I just recognize the name, and wanted to let folks know that he's a well-reputed serious scientist; his research should be taken seriously.

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Old Post 05-16-2007 12:32 AM
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Mordecai
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DAMN YOU! The article is a lot of vague hand waving at general ideas, so I was hoping for a better run down, yet still in language that wouldn't require me to spend a lot of self educating on the subject.

-m

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Old Post 05-16-2007 12:40 AM
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SimpleSimon
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What a fascinating set of findings. I can see some great utility in being able to "switch off" fairness as a concern by magnetic induction, especially in conjunction with pleasure/pain center stimulus (also by magnetic induction).

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Mister Freign
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Interview with Damasio

A book of his I liked

A review of that book

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Old Post 05-16-2007 06:42 AM
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skinny
Bone-yard

Registered: May 2006
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quote:
Originally posted by Mordecai


At a guess, I'd say you copy and pasted from another forum or other similar site that shortens urls. What you should have done was either pasted from the address bar of the tab/page with the actual article, or right clicked on the link on the page you were on and selected 'copy link address' or whatever the equivalent option is on your browser.

If that isn't the case, I don't really know how you managed that.

-m



You are right mord, i posted it on another English forum first, then went back and copied from the address bar...thanks for that.

I wonder whether any of these findings could be used in a criminals defence in court, i.e. I didn't know what i was doing.

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Old Post 05-16-2007 06:45 AM
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Nutrimentia
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The results seem to indicate that there is a brain area that must be functioning properly for moral evaluations to process correctly, but I don't see how that region can be considered the "source" of morality. There are certain kinds of emotions that are likely to have specialized processing modules associated with them (if you accept the modular model of cognition, which I'm not entirely convinced of). These results seem to be entirely compatible with the notion that the specific moral precepts can be culturally dependent yet require a particular brain function in order to process properly.

Cool stuff though. Damasio is a great read. Another cool book is Tomasello's ""Cultural Origins of Human Cognition". Pinker is less useful, in my opinion.

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Old Post 05-20-2007 10:55 AM
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Large Filipino
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We are taught morals cause that's what the man needs to bring the nigga man down.

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Old Post 05-20-2007 05:28 PM
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rodney
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Morals are for the poor.

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Old Post 05-20-2007 05:40 PM
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Large Filipino
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But I think some morals are engraved at birth then taught later.
Like you are born with a survival instinct and from the moment of birth you have an instinct to breath. Then automatically you have this built in moral just like an instinct to not kill another life.
But then you are taught to kill at a very young age and then by the time you're an adult,you are an assasin,but the inital first killings really bothered you but now it's no big deal.
And then we are taught that people that hurt dogs go to jail but then it's oh kay to kill billions of chickens a day so that we can have MEAT!
And then there are others that think killing anything is not oh kay so they turn veggie but forget that that celery stick they are holding was not only alive when someone DECAPITATED it but is still very much alive on their hand ready to be eaten.
Morals rule.

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Old Post 05-20-2007 05:50 PM
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J E B Stuart
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Re: Do we learn morals...

quote:
Originally posted by skinny
Do we learn morals...or are we taught them? . . .

Assuming that's a multiple-choice question (and it should be), in the case of that jackass wonderaz, I marked:

(c) Ain't happenin'.

Amen.

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Old Post 05-20-2007 06:21 PM
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Mordecai
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quote:
Originally posted by Nutrimentia
The results seem to indicate that there is a brain area that must be functioning properly for moral evaluations to process correctly,


Maybe I read it wrong, but it seemed to say that there wasn't one single brain area, but two that were cross referencing, and that by disabling one, one removed the moral evaluation ability. This is actually important, as the connections that cross reference them would be where 'morality' comes from, rather than from one section or the other. If I also recall correctly the part being supressed in the experiment was the emotional reaction part, which makes me wonder why they didn't try supressing the logical part as well.

-m

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Old Post 05-20-2007 10:26 PM
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Large Filipino
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So what's the moral of this thread?

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Old Post 05-20-2007 10:27 PM
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Nutrimentia
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Yeah, that's what I got too, mord, but I still don't see how identifying that aspect of brain function necessarily applies to the question of if we learn morals or not. We can see that we lose moral calculations if bits of our brain malfunctions though.

Good question about the logical part. Interestingly, logic actually depends on emotions, at least functional decision making does. If you haven't, check out Damasio's Decartes Error. He talks about patients who've had their emotional brain centers destroyed. They lose the ability to make decisions, becoming too rational and "logical". They seem to be unproblematic, testing well on intelligence, capable of holding conversations, etc. But if you ask them, for example, whether they want to return next Wednesday or Tuesday for an appointment, they'll sit and consider both options for as long as you let them: they can't decide. If you break the indecision ("Tuesday works bnest for me"), they'll happily agree and go on their way as if they hadn't been stuck. THis and other examples highlight how emotional attachments (i.e. preferences) underly logical decision making.

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Old Post 05-21-2007 07:30 AM
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