Registered: Feb 2003
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Tal Tales
Finding and Losing My Religion

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welcome aboard, tal. i recently went from not minding moderate religion at all, to understanding how much of a deterrent to progress of mankind it has been. sam harris is to blame, of course. the most interesting question in the debate, i find, is how do we get everyone else on board and what do we do then, to make everyone's life a bit easier.

but all that aside, let's go fuck squee up!

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quote:

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Originally posted by Talarohk
God, if you are there, I can only make this appeal; if there is something you want me to do, then I pray you will help me to know what it is, and help me to know the time and place.

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Apparently there's one thing you don't want to do, Tal:

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The Phelpsites actually don't particularly make me question my faith, in themselves. The existence of evil, hateful religious fundamentalists...well, that doesn't mean there's no God. It just means there are obnoxious people.

edit: thanks, dogcow, for the welcome. I'm not quite adopting militant atheism, but I am really floundering in trying to know what to believe. And I actually have a lot of respect for squee.

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i was kidding, tal. someone who is still talking to god is not really anywhere near being an atheist.

edit: but more importantly, if you switch now, you should know that you'll most likely be turning back to god in a few decades anyway, so it's hardly worth the bother. might as well stay with it.

Last edited by dogcow on 06-21-2007 at 08:28 AM

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quote:

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All their life was spent not in laws, statutes, or rules, but according to their own free will and pleasure. They rose out of their beds when they thought good; they did eat, drink, labour, sleep, when they had a mind to it and were disposed for it. None did awake them, none did offer to constrain them to eat, drink, nor to do any other thing; for so had Gargantua established it. In all their rule and strictest tie of their order there was but this one clause to be observed,

Do What Thou Wilt;

because men that are free, well-born, well-bred, and conversant in honest companies, have naturally an instinct and spur that prompteth them unto virtuous actions, and withdraws them from vice, which is called honour. Those same men, when by base subjection and constraint they are brought under and kept down, turn aside from that noble disposition by which they formerly were inclined to virtue, to shake off and break that bond of servitude wherein they are so tyrannously enslaved; for it is agreeable with the nature of man to long after things forbidden and to desire what is denied us.

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Last edited by Coincidence on 06-21-2007 at 09:28 AM

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quote:

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Originally posted by dogcow
welcome aboard, tal.

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it's only related to atheism because people still believe in a god and follow his user's guide for the world, and its many pointless restrictions. logically, there should be no connection.

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If striving for the sublime isn't pointless, atheism entails pointless restrictions.

But please elaborate, I'm not sure I get your point.

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let me put it this way. in a less fucked up world, there would be no word for 'atheism' because the whole concept of god would have never been invented in the first place, and no one would have felt the need to write a moral guide in his name either, placing arbitrary restrictions on fellow humans for no particularly good reason.

but anyhow, to answer your question, if 'striving for the sublime' means fantasizing about benevolent creators of the universe that you can talk to whenever you feel like it and that are immensely interested in your consumption of alcohol, sex and drugs, and your regular praying, then i don’t think that’s a particularly pointless restriction. say, something within grasp of reason would be good, for a change. and hey, you know what? let’s limit ourselves to more tangible directions of inquiry, maybe something that could actually help us in our daily lives, you know? let’s start small. perhaps a more pragmatic philosophy first, concerned with our more immediate concerns, like getting through the day, or even try and better the society? i don’t know either, should we change the social organisation, lift centuries old moral restrictions or see if different family grouping would work better for humans? we’ll never know unless it becomes a subject of study which will never happen in a religiously guided society. but let’s start with something we actually need and can use, you know?

the point is, nothing is happening in any of these ‘fields’ that some random guy has found necessary to codify, in the name of god, thousands of years ago. no progress what so ever. we can’t even start looking in that direction because it’d piss the creator of the entire fucking universe off. and man, that’s a shit plot even for a b-movie.

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caffeine rocks.

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Not really, since I think your philosophy closes off areas that are healthy for the human mind, if only because they are biological mechanisms. Your mind is poisoned with organized religion, and I understand you want to erase it all, but keep a door open.
When speaking of the sublime, I'm talking about e.g. works of art that are spiritual and born from metaphysics like those of Bach, Blake or DaVinci. They and certain personal experiences born from stuff like strong emotions, drugs or devotion can make you experience the religious feeling when it is best - creating a sense of meaning that you just don't get with atheism.

But atheism can be healthy too - that feeling of shackles falling from you when contemplating the idea of a pure, materialist world was great for me at least, but it's not always enough, and it shouldn't be, with our potential.

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my mind isn't 'poisoned' with anything. i wasn't raised religiously so the whole construction strikes me as rather dense. let me repeat that, i'm not someone who suddenly realised that religion doesn't make sense, i was never religious in the first place. however, since i know how us humans need various constructions to keep us going, i didn't really care about it that much. as i said, it's only recently that i've come to understand the full extent of how deterrent religion has been to progress.

i think we can both safely agree on the spirituality of art. why you want to invent phrases like 'religious feelings' is beyond me, but i'd be curious to know what you mean by that, if you'd care to explain.

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Nah, it's probably the wrong word.

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i'd still be an interesting discussion, just not on topic.

although, it doesn't look like anyone is interested in talking about what happens after religionanyway; discussing the likelihood of god is always so much more fruitful.

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Humans have a need and an ability to invent mythologies that adequately explain the universe. Shared mythologies are naturally losing relevance in our individualised culture. I want my mythology to be as broad and expansive as possible.
Science alone is definitely not the final answer, or mythology, as humans cannot naturally live up to its standards, and a society built solely on scientific evidence collapses because our brains are not scientific.

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you're just fucking with me, aren't you?

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I'm afraid it's a necessary part of religious discussion.

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I was a devout christian also..going to church still...going with the flow..but somewhere along my life I have been distracted.
Let me see...high school...no...I went to Bible Quizzes that went National....christian camps...marriage...no...still going to church..trying to make my kids free thinkers yet they still need to go just so like we can be....accepted.
I know. My faith went sour when I JOINED THE ASYLUM!!
Yes. This DEBIL FORUM is responsible for the DETRIMENTALITY OF THE CHRISTIAN RELIGION and MUST BE STOPPED!!
I wished Americans had adopted Buddism instead of Christianity.
But then again,we would be a way weak country.
Everyone would like invade us,and then we would be like "Let it so..."
I like plums.

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EEEEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!

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i wish the same for turkey about christianity, but than i saw greeks and two would be more for world same religion, relatively same cultural values, i like this ermm vividness.
but don't like the bad guys

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