Registered: Nov 2001
Location: Rio de los Brazos de Dios
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oxsan
Immigration

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Registered: Apr 2001
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I think it all sucks, equality doesnt mean equality, it means special treatment for favored minority groups and minorities control the majority in so many cases & all the while this type of policy is eating the last of the value held for the individual.

i call shenanigans

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Registered: Aug 2001
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Oxsan, I think that you worry too much and may be tempted pick on anecdotal examples (that are of genuine concern, often enough, in and of themselves) and take them as representative of immigration as a whole. I mean, there's considerable variety in the immigration procedure, from greencard lotteries for some nations (a true lottery, with no consideration of qualifications) to having to make a case to the Labour Department or prove exceptional or extraordinary ability in the given field.

On the University issue, I would agree that if people from out of state are being given the in-state tuition (whether they are from another state in the US or from another country) then that is wrong. Of course, that's not an 'immigration' issue, necessarily -- the in-state tuition shouldn't be available to out-of-state students from wherever they came. If, of course, they are paying out-of-state tuition (or having it paid for them by some foundation) that is a different matter, but I agree that in-state tuition should only be available to in-state residents.

As an immigrant myself, of course, I am clearly biased (although my bias is not universal amongst immigrants; many immigrants, including the guy who founded VDARE, want to pull the drawbridge up after them). I don't think that I would be that easy to replace with an American, incidentally, although I wouldn't go so far to claim that I am irreplaceable (but most of us will ever be that).

Last edited by Smug Git on 10-08-2007 at 11:29 PM

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Registered: Mar 2004
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The critical thing about immigration to me is who it is that is immigrating. While I personally think we have to get a handle on it, I also am glad it is mainly Mexicans here in the US. We could have a horde of camel jockeys thundering across the border to set up their tents. We are lucky ducks.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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I don't know exactly what constitutes a "horde" but we do have camel jockeys crossing the southern border---in what quantity I don't know. I think that one is too many if he (or she) carries a suitcase dirty bomb or maybe ten gallons of bacterial culture. I once brought back across that border a twenty gallon barrel of fresh pineapples and no one even asked me about them or asked what was in the barrel. I once carried a 30-06
rifle with mounted scope, a 12 guage shotgun and 200 rounds of ammunition from Dallas-to New York -to Paris France- to Bangui ,Central African Empire and the top was never opened on the case until we reached Bangui. Customs officials, border guards, and immigration officials are and always have been very lack-a-daisical about their duties
and still are in the US.

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oxsan


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Registered: Nov 2001
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Smug, the first item I listed as "situation 1" is not anecdotal and has been presented to the US Supreme Court for certiorari. It turns on a very narrow point of law. In the US the provisions of a treaty if ratified by the Senate take precedence over federal lor state aw if they conflict. If there is a treaty so ratified that has as an item the provision that law officers must tell the prisoner that he has rights to counsel with his ambassador then 25 convicted killers will be retried. Some of the cases are very old and they probably would not now be prosecuted. I doubt that there is such a treaty but there could be. I could find real examples for the other conditions I noted also.

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oxsan


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The Vienna Convention on diplomatic rights, privileges, and duties specifies that diplomatic personnel may counsel with nationals of their country when those persons are criminally charged. It does not say they must, nor does it obligate the host country to inform those diplomatic personnel. The general charter of the UN does does obligate officers of the host nation to notify diplomatic personnel when one of their nationals is criminally charged - if either the person(s) charged or the diplomatic personnel requests such a notification.

In light of an historic trend (now showing signs of reversal) amongst the federal courts here to create affirmative duties upon law enforcement agencies and/or lower courts to proactively inform criminal defendants of their rights (Miranda, anyone?) in the complete absence of statute law so requiring, I will be unsurprised if the USSC does reverse that conviction.

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'Anecdotal' doesn't mean 'not real', Oxsan. I was using it more to indicate potential unrepresentativeness (I explicitly pointed out that these issues are "that are of genuine concern, often enough, in and of themselves").

US customs and immigration at airports are just not lackadaisical, not since I've been travelling here (and not, I believe, for some time before that). An American wouldn't realise it because it's an entirely different beast for you guys, but for visa waiver and visaed individuals, it's slow, thorough and onerous. As for land points of entry, I can only comment on the Canadian crossing, which is not as thorough as the airport procedures, it seems to me, but which still involves explanation (just no fingerprinting or pictures of your retina (or is it the iris?) as at the airport). Of course, if a criminal wished to enter the US from Canada, they just wouldn't go through the checkpoint, I guess.

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Also, your first item hasn't yet been decided upon. So we will have to wait to see if all or some of them get their convictions voided. Of course, 25 convicted killers is hardly a huge deal in the US, which has many, many more convicted killers in prison (both American and non-American) and, presumably, many unconvicted or released killers out of prison. So, representative of a huge problem? I guess that depends on whether there are hundreds more... In any case, if they're not Americans, they can still be deported.

But in any case, perhaps they ought to be, at some stage, informed of their rights to seek counsel from the Ambassador. In which case, rather than complaining about the immigrant invasion of murderers, we ought to look more closely at the DA and police (and trial court). However, if they have already exhausted all other grounds of appeal, how do you think they'll do at a retrial? If the relevant authority does not retry them, then that's an issue to be taken up with that authority. It seems to me that your biggest worry could be that they'll avoid the death penalty, rather than that they'll be released.

There seems to me to be a weird focus on immigrants. Of course, people in nearly every country seem to have been concerned about immigration ever since there has been immigration and yet things actually aren't too bad today, which suggests that at least some of that fear was misplaced.

Last edited by Smug Git on 10-09-2007 at 01:04 PM

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I'm not concerned about immigration. I'm annoyed that the term is repeatedly substituted in media discussion for illegal immigration in order to skew the debate.

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Both ends of the range of opinion on immigration do that. People who are against both illegal and legal immigration (many of the people who post at National Review Online, for example, let alone the VDARE types) stick them together, as do people supporting illegal immigrants.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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Smug you seem much more sensitive to this issue than I am. Your mention of "...as an immigrant" is a little unnecessary since we Americans are essentially ALL immigrants--even the ones that we call "native Americans". My ancestors were hounded from Italy to Switzerland to France to Ireland and finally got to these shores in 1746 as indentured servants and worked as slaves for seven years in Pennsylvania to pay for their passage across the blue in the good ship Kouli Khan. I can hardly be against immigration but I can be very concerned by massive ILLEGAL immigration and a bit concerned by failure of the immigrants of this day and time to become a part of the society they entered. I included the little bits about strange language in this posting primarily to lighten the posting a bit. I intended to make the posting anecdotal in the sense contained in my Webster's Dictionary which is "a short entertaining account of some happening usually personal or biographical". In the several dictionaries I have here I fail to find the meaning of "potential unrepresentativeness" and I assume that it may be academic argot or might simply be that my dictionaries are too elemental to have included
that meaning. Since the twin towers incident I have considered the present conflict with al Qaeda to be essentially a religious war and have been told that viewpoint is wrong by the same people who tell me that I should not refer to first year students as freshmen. I am even more convinced now than I was in 2001 that this is a conflict between Islam and Christianity and I don't believe that you have to put "fundamental" before either of those religions to express the reality. So yeah, I worry a bit. Not about me because I won't live to see the end of it or even a great altreration of my present life style but about my grandchildren and great grandchildren who will have this to deal with it after I am gone. For the last couple of weeks I have been trying to gain a very slight understanding of String Theory and Fractals and have failed totally in that effort so that is why I may seem to be more worried than usual. It is not nice not to be able to understand Mother Nature.

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oxsan


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Most Americans aren't immigrants, they are descended from immigrants. If descendents of immigrants are also immigrants, then pretty much all humanity are immigrants and, in fact, the word doesn't mean a great deal, it seems to me.

I mostly mention my immigrant status primarily to be open about the obvious bias I may have and, to some extent, to illustrate that I have recent knowledge of the immigration process, both anecdotal and based on some study.

When I use 'anedcotal' it is in reference to unrepresentativeness, as when it is a personal or biographical detail. In any case, by any definition, it doesn't mean 'untrue' or 'not real'. However, peculiarity in usage as to precise meaning is almost certainly down to my own foibles and misuse (although, as I say, there is no implication that it's not true in any case).

My grandfather also thinks that life is much more complicated and scary now than it was for him, but given that he and every other male in my family history who was military-aged at the time fought in World War Two or the Great War, I fear that he may be worrying too much (a possibility he accepts). When his skipper made an error that resulted in my grandfather taking fire from six E-Boats whilst he commanded the ship's sole armament of a Lewis gun, I think that he was in more danger than I have ever been or, likely, shall ever be.

I think that if there is a real conflict between Islam and Christianity then Islam will win -- its members are much more devoted. However, I don't think that is the case. I think that it's a conflict between some people who are moslems (of a particular sort) and some people who are christians or agnostics or atheists or moslems or hindus or whatever. That's why I think that the few that are moslems "of a particular sort" will lose, in the end, although they may have some joy in their main aims (particularly getting a government of religious fanatics in Saudi) but the 'make the West moslem!' stuff? No way. At this stage, making the West religious in any significant way that involves self-sacrifice will be implausible, let alone bringing in ascetic Islam. Anyone that tries that will find that their meal, in fact, eats them.

The evidence for the theory that moslems, particularly of the terrorist persuasion, are crossing the Southern border isn't very strong, I don't think. Presumably the Northern border would be a more attractive crossing (and it won't ever be fenced, almost certainly) but I am not sure what data there is on that either. I think that everyone in the US will, as did many in Europe for many years, have to live with the miniscule threat of terrorism. Being as it's much less than the chance of being murdered by another American and being as they have nothing close to the destructive power of the old Soviet Union in Cold War days, I think that it's probably bearable. That innocent people will die, I have no doubt. I can't imagine a time where they haven't.

Fractals are more likely, in my opinion, to yield joy in study than is string theory.

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Registered: Nov 2001
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We not really too far apart, nor do I blame the adherents of Islam for their feelings nearly as much as you probably think I do. At the present time Islam is a more life pervasive religion than Christianity as it is practiced in the US and European nations. Islam is inseperable from daily life and even from commerce while this is not the case for a large part of humanity in the western world. There was a time when the Europeans and Americans LIVED their religio in more like the Mohammadens do now. In those areas where we disagree I sincerely hope that you are right and I am wrong.

I have decided to give up both fractals and string theory for Lent--starting now.

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oxsan


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For those who support Mitt Romney, can you honestly say that you'll vote for the same person seen in this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Elx3UWmyAY4

I suggest standing behind a man that will never waiver on the issues. I suggest going to http://www.teamtancredo.org/ and rallying behind a true American who is committed to protecting the sovereignty and legal Americans. I suggest rallying around Tom Tancredo, I am. He's the only candidate I'll vote for. If he doesn't win the nomination, I'll still write him in on the ballot.

"Men, we need to secure our borders. So, call in the TANC and we'll get 'er done."

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I'm not voting for anyone who says "get 'er done".

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Tom Tancredo doesn't say: "get 'er done." That's me that wrote the slogan: Men, we need to secure our borders. So, call in the TANC and we'll get 'er done.

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No thanks. I'm voting for Ron Paul.

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reminds me of when i came to austria. austrians can be real pigs about people learning to speak german. the irony, of course, being that the vieneese don't even speak proper german themselves, but the vieneese dialect that sounds pretty awful. i remember, after about the first year of living here, that i was pretty good with proper german but i still had no idea what the hell the natives were talking about, when they spoke the dialect. i still have fond memories of going to the police because i had to renew my shitty de-facto-refugee visa and the clerk repeatedly telling me, in the most derisive manner possible 'speak german? speak german?'. good times.

i suppose people everywhere think their language is somehow sacred and everyone who wants to live or work there needs to learn it. the truth is though, that a large population has no need to learn it, since they work shit jobs with people mostly of the same origin and the job does not require it, or, in the opposite extreme, work in high positions, i.e. diplomats and state representatives, who, similarly, will work with people of the same origin and require almost no german knowledge to live here. of course, the second example gets a free pass since they're the 'good immigrants'. it's almost as if it was not so much an issue of german knowledge but simply a disguised dislike for foreigners in general.

the greatest irony though is that most people don't even know their own grammar or can appreciate the different functionalities of languages, having never learned anything but their mother tongue but insist on everyone else learning it 'properly'.

there is a lot to be said about the new EU visa regulations and the new immigrant wave vs. the recent rise of the 'foreigners are taking our jobs' right wing parties, as well as the you_can-study-here-but-then-get-out system but i'm kind of tired and this is about US immigration anyway.

i just wanted to share some similarities in peoples' perceptions of foreigners here and there.

mind you, not to be misunderstood, i think people in general should learn the language if they plan to settle in a country, but immigrants' knowledge of the language is hardly what's driving the whole debate.

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Given Tancredo's suggestion that cities which object to the border fence be effectively ceded to Mexico, I think I'll have to give him a pass as a candidate.

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It's Viennese, dogcow.

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