Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

God and stuff

I have noticed the general acceptance of religious views here so far...thats cool...I only attack people for their beliefs if they attack me for mine...so please take this post as one of general interest rather than trying to undermine anyones views or a persnal attack...

I suppose in many ways, this is particularly for Emerald... you seem to truly have faith, rather than just be like many christians I have met, who just seem to live under the pretense of having faith... But everyone elses input is welcome as well

I want to believe in something powerful and devine... I just can't. The thought of us walking this planet with no real reason other than to die and become worm food does not appeal to me... Unfortunately, I also study philosophy and can't seem to rationalise any religious belief I have encountered with what we know to be 'true'.

So I am desperstely curious to know what it is that gives you faith...

How do you rationalise the existence of evil if we have and omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god?

Also... if Jesus died on the cross for our sins, then dosnt that make hell kind of redundant?...

Again... this is not a pisstake... I seriously want to know what you think...

------------------
The only real difference between those who enforce these rules and the 'freelance tax collectors' with balaclavas and flick knives is that members of the second group are more honest. They don't tell you that you're being mugged 'for the good of society.'

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location: Oregon
Posts: 1010

I believe alot of differant things. For one, I believe the point in life is enjoyment, in whatever form you may be able to find it. As far as religon, I have none. I do indeed believe there is a higher power somewhere, but there is no way we could comprehend who or what it is. I like to study theoligy in my spare time (of course that's all I have right now) and I find it most interesting to read about the history of religons. It's amazing where they come from. In no way do I consider myself an expert, but I enjoy discussing religon whenever I get a chance. I just hate talking with people who are blind to everything but their "faith". I love being called evil, and being told I am going to hell. It amuses me so.


------------------------
"The way to get over someone is to get under someone else" - The Cherry Poppin' Daddies

I stopped being sexist because bitches hate that shit.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2079

It's 4:15 AM for me, but I cannot resist...

Why do you, Muffy, need to have any sort of a faith? Worms eating bodies eating maggots eating shit not romantic enough for you?

"So I am desperstely curious to know what it is that gives you faith..." - Muffy.

Desperate? Don't be. People adopt a faith as a reaction to social expectation, not because they really want to believe... Faith is fear, fear is internal, the internal is you. If you need a god, look to yourself. If you need a friend, than go backpacking in a country that appeals to your aesthetic, you'll meet lots of people.

"How do you rationalise the existence of evil if we have and omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god?" - Muffy

This is best answered with the Martin Buber "I and Thou" religious existentialist response.

For instance:

God exists, creates everything, than makes itself wholly imperceptable to humanity. God is, although human beings cannot know of it with any sort of qualification. We can name its creations ("I") although we cannot name it ("Thou"). It exists, although we don't have the ability to even know that, so we just exist, and are expected to act within the constraints of its bible.

Essentially, there is a god, but we wouldn't know (possible, humans only exist in one dimension, and to assume that god was only three dimensional or favored the 3rd dimension would be inane).

Now, this god does not punish us here on earth for evil, and it is wholly responsible for us human beings to act and to create ourselves. This presupposition assumes tabula rasa and all the rest of Sartre's existential, amoral tenats.

We cannot know the mind of god, because we cannot know god. We have a book, and it details some of its social code, although it has been subject to thousands of years of historical revision, and the original story might not still exist.

In essence, we could have thrown away the users manual and written our own.

In either case, the whole premise takes a lot of faith. Faith that we know the mind of god or faith that we potentially can know the mind of god. Whatever, there's still AIDS, cancer, inquisition, starvation, injustice, and general malaise throughout humanity, and it would be dumb luck that any of us ever went to heaven.

Dumb luck or a dick head god.

"I also study philosophy and can't seem to rationalise any religious belief I have encountered with what we know to be 'true'." - Muffy.

'true'? There's a "truth"?! I'm sorry Muffy, but if you were under the impression that philosophical analysis would lead you to an absolute understanding of the universe than you've got a big dissapointment headed your way.

Humanity is a subjective bunch of individual minds that experience, exist, die. Each of them creates an association between these experiences and their perception of the world. These perceptions seem very real to the person, however, the perception is one in six billion "truths" established by various people.

Nobody knows the truth, and searching for an identifiable, objective reality is bunk.

Instead, let go and find yourself. If you respect god so much, and want to emulate its ability, than create some art or something. God creates, why don't you?

Anyway, interesting topic.

Cheers.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2079

Real quick, than I'm gonna go play sleep.

To anyone in here that is religious, I respect your beliefs entirely. Mine are just as subjective as your own, and my words above are only an opinion.

Like I said, 1 in six billion or so.

Just keep that in mind before I'm sentenced to an inquisitional execution

Uh.

Sleep!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: The Bottom of the Toyem Pole
Posts: 9468

Let's see if I can pull off a successful attempt to answer this without being an ass to people who have faith.

The whole god-thing, in whatever form, is so incredibly anthropocentric it is amazing that people still buy into it. For whatever reason, humans search for meaning in life. As we are creators and manipulators and know no other way of living in the world, we assume that all meaning derives from a similar source.

As the popularity of religous faith attests, humans are currently in a cultural state that makes it very difficult to accept any other premise other than some "other" made everything. I don't think that Muffy should feel inadequate or disspirited (pun?) about her lack of faith at all. There is no reason in the world to have faith. I concede that there is really no compelling reason NOT to have faith either I suppose, but I try not to convince myself to buy into belief systems as rigid and contradictory as faith-based systems usually are.

I truly do not mean this as a person attack on anyone. I do hold critical opinions of people who reject rational comprehensions of universe, but at the same time I try to maintain a perspective that is open to possibilities. I really do have room for God in my world-view, he just hasn't done anything yet to convince me that he is really there.

I do think that many (not all) people with faith are simply too afraid to live in a world without meaning provided by God. There isn't anything wrong with this from a pramatic, live-your-life view, but it grates on my nerves when these people start spouting about how "right" they are and how "wrong" the rest of us are.

We are all best served by trying to remain loose in the views that we hold. How arrogant is it to think that we know something completely and thus can longer keep the door open for new evidence? I am guilty of this, I know, but I really try to allow other ideas, perceptions, and reality-tunnels to impact mine. Flexibility is the key; it enables one to assimilate the best while separating the chaff.

Feral said it best about truth and philosophical inquiry. Nothing is absolute, nothing is true. It is best to remember the malleable aspects of cognition and understanding and representation in order to best grasp the environment and situations we operate in.

Nothing has any meaning whatsoever without a person there to comprehend it.

As I am bordering on meaningless drivel by this point, I'll stop for now.

Again, I hope no one takes any of this personally.

------------------------
Boomer Bible: Find it, Read it, Learn it, Live it, Love it. I mean this!

http://www.boomerbible.com/BBFAC.html

All hail Eris! All hail Discordia!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Dec 2000
Location: NZ
Posts: 877

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Feral Automaton:
Why do you, Muffy, need to have any sort of a faith? Worms eating bodies eating maggots eating shit not romantic enough for you?
I dont NEED to, like I said, I WANT to. Yes, I find the idea of eternal bliss or whatever more romantic than slowly putrifying while I am gorged on by vile little insects... so?

Desperate? Don't be. People adopt a faith as a reaction to social expectation, not because they really want to believe... Faith is fear, fear is internal, the internal is you. If you need a god, look to yourself. If you need a friend, than go backpacking in a country that appeals to your aesthetic, you'll meet lots of people.
My desperation is motivated by curiosity.. again, not need... excuse me for trying to learn about other peoples ways of thinking. Although I am not outright going to disagree with you (probably because my mind is feeling open at the moment) I would like to know how you KNOW that another persons faith is fear motivated? Have you experienced their faith, or are you merely talking from your own insecurities? OH.. and the if I need a god look to myself bit cracks me up... read my title.

This is best answered with the Martin Buber "I and Thou" religious existentialist response.

For instance:

God exists, creates everything, than makes itself wholly imperceptable to humanity. God is, although human beings cannot know of it with any sort of qualification. We can name its creations ("I") although we cannot name it ("Thou"). It exists, although we don't have the ability to even know that, so we just exist, and are expected to act within the constraints of its bible.

Essentially, there is a god, but we wouldn't know (possible, humans only exist in one dimension, and to assume that god was only three dimensional or favored the 3rd dimension would be inane).

Now, this god does not punish us here on earth for evil, and it is wholly responsible for us human beings to act and to create ourselves. This presupposition assumes tabula rasa and all the rest of Sartre's existential, amoral tenats.

We cannot know the mind of god, because we cannot know god. We have a book, and it details some of its social code, although it has been subject to thousands of years of historical revision, and the original story might not still exist.

In essence, we could have thrown away the users manual and written our own.

In either case, the whole premise takes a lot of faith. Faith that we know the mind of god or faith that we potentially can know the mind of god. Whatever, there's still AIDS, cancer, inquisition, starvation, injustice, and general malaise throughout humanity, and it would be dumb luck that any of us ever went to heaven.

Dumb luck or a dick head god.

Now... if you had just posted THAT and left out all the other crap , then I might not be thinking that you are really full of yourself and just like the sound of your own opinions rather than actually bother to considers other right about now.

'true'? There's a "truth"?! I'm sorry Muffy, but if you were under the impression that philosophical analysis would lead you to an absolute understanding of the universe than you've got a big dissapointment headed your way. Well duh... that might be why I put true in ''s... yeah?

Humanity is a subjective bunch of individual minds that experience, exist, die. Each of them creates an association between these experiences and their perception of the world. These perceptions seem very real to the person, however, the perception is one in six billion "truths" established by various people.

Nobody knows the truth, and searching for an identifiable, objective reality is bunk. Really?... they didn't teach me that in epist 101.


Instead, let go and find yourself. If you respect god so much, and want to emulate its ability, than create some art or something. God creates, why don't you?
Ok, how can I respect god if I dont believe him?..I personally dont think god created me, my parents did, and for the record, I dont respect them either. As for finding myself, I did not know I was supposed to be lost.
Thankyou for a condescending and verbose response... but I think you failed to actually read my post...I questioned how another has faith out of curiosity, I did not ask you to tell me why I should or should not have faith personally... you want to beleieve in existentialism... go ahead, but dont reply to me like your ideas are any smarter, more rational, or holier than my own, because I dont respect arguments from closed minds.
Anyway... 'interesting' reply.



------------------------
The only real difference between those who enforce these rules and the 'freelance tax collectors' with balaclavas and flick knives is that members of the second group are more honest. They don't tell you that you're being mugged 'for the good of society.'

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 31

seeing has how there are so many diffrnet religions and there are no "correct" answers to your questions, try this, (I did it) find a book on religions, read through it, give each a good thought and ask those questions again in your mind, perhaps one of them holds those answers. And as for your other statements, that would ony be the Catholic religion which (no offense to anyone) Is such a load of hipocritical bull that there is no answer.

------------------------
My unholy Gecos shall steal away your life and your souls, and bring you down unto my domain

[This message has been edited by LordoftheFuton (edited 02-28-2001).]

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location:
Posts: 23

Where does faith come from? I mean is it senible to just beleive in something without even really knowing that thing.
I have faith that I'll wake up in the morning, and the sun will rise like it did yesterday, but both of these things could easilly be so out of my control. When I think about it hard enough I realise that my faith is actually hope, I hope I wake up tommorow morning, that I don't die in my sleep or crossing the road today.
In years gone by people would worship the sun, in a way they hoped that there celebration of this mystical force that made there crops grow and there clothes dry would bring it back day after day or from the short days of winter.
So it is absolutely excusable that we (humans) travelling along our meagre little exsistence should hope that it would not simply end in death, hope that there is more for us beyond life. To me this doesn't seem reasonable, it seems selfish. People share so little and give so little in life, but expect to be rewarded when there time is up with another chance, or another exsistence... please?
My faith is in other people and myself, I believe that if I make the most of the time I've got, if I help as many people lifes and do enough good I'll leave a legacy and that'll be my after life, so I might not be able to enjoy it but someone somewhere will be able to.
This could just be my belief however becuase I was raised in front of an english TV where the resounding message is to be a morally upright citizen and that will be reward enough, wasn't life my reward... we hould be looking for someone to repay the favour to not someone to shepherd us, craddle us and then finnally forgive us once we've taken the gift of life and squandered it.

Where the hell did that come from, I'm gonna stop thinking and go look at some porn.



------------------------
Ploughedfield@lycos.com
------------------------
-- --- --- --- -- -
If the cream go sour I'm not the type of pussy to drink it

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Baba Kueria
Posts: 3146

OK, maybe I shouldnt post this, given that I don't have the same Faith as the one you're curious about, but I have A faith all the same, so here goes...
So I am desperstely curious to know what it is that gives you faith...

I have faith in the perpetuation of the Soul. I believe conciousness, both external (as apparent in all life) and internal (Ego) are subject to the same laws as the rest of the Universe in that they can neither be created or destroyed. I beleive in a Heaven and a Hell.

Heaven (or God) I see as Infinite external consciousness, without the burden of internal consciousness.
Hell, of course becomes the opposite, Ego without awareness.

I see Life as the unique opportunity for these two sides of sentience to co-exist, albeit in a less than infinite fashion.
I also like to think that these awarenesses in non-corporeal form do retain some limited ability to affect the rest of the physical Universe, like a driving force behind evolution if you will.

My faith comes from my willingness to rationalise this beleif. It just makes perfect sense to me, for now. I do look forward to the day another beleif comes along and ursurps it. Shit, that's why I read these forums in the first place.

The upshot of it all is this: when I die, I get to go to both Heaven and Hell, and while alive, the moral code by which I bind myself is extremely unrestricted.
How do you rationalise the existence of evil if we have and omnipotent, omnibenevolent and omniscient god?
I see God as omniscience. I see Evil as natural, and therefore a Good Thing. I also like cats



------------------------
"...and I'll do it again as soon as the scabs heal."

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Montreal
Posts: 3002

One need not explain Faith, the idea of faith is to continue forward with out knowing.


------------------------
I dun Know...URBANSKILLS!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jan 2001
Location: California
Posts: 4252

Good post Muffy.

My faith is based on rationalization and lets face it, my up-bringing.

I am not a clone or a zombie. I am way to cynical to let my emotions rule over my logic.
I believe what I believe based on observation and calculation. I have seen enough to know God. My relationship is a casual one not a ritual one. I have seen the work of demons and the work of God in the physical sense. I don't need any one's agreement to validate my faith. I have seen and I know.
For the most part my opinions are based on seeing things in the general sence. Humanity as a whole, the earth as a whole etc...
I can also say there are specific events, seeing someone change completely, witnessing a healer cure people I personally know...ya ya I know what you are thinking they would have gotten better any way or the placebo effect maybe in some cases but not in others. I saw a woman's leg grow (that I knew) at least two inches. She had braces on her legs and special shoes. She walked out of the meeting without them. Her migranes also went away. I have seen the physical work of ghosts. In my experience ghosts seem to be focused around people who have experimented spiritually (deamons?).

I am a Christian by upbringing but not a church going bible thumping one. I don't own a bible but I think I will go get one to catch up. My faith is not based on the bible but it is in the God of the bible.

Muffy, you already believe what you believe. We all do. What is faith to me will most likely be something else to you. Asking questions and sorting it out for yourself is the only "path to enlightenment". You are on the right track. Believe what makes sence to you. God will make himself known. You only need to accept what is real to you.

------------------------
Woof.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Feb 2001
Location: Boston
Posts: 7271

I have a little saying that I tell people sometimes.

For all we know, this is one stop on a journey through many lives, dimensions, and worlds. And for all we know, this is the one life we have, so you might as well make the most of it.

I'm a confirmed Catholic. I also go to a tech college, and I'm the midground in a sense. I'm the one who believes in some form of higher being and feels religion has a purpose, to help control the masses like it always has attempted. However, it's going wayside to government. The whole idea of Heaven and Hell was to create a system of consequences depending on how you lived your life. People were to fear Hell and try to make their way into Heaven. All this was just a ploy to make people live a life by the moral standards of the religion they were involved in. Now, people look to religion to give them power and strength in times of need. It's more of a temporary thing for me. Only when I need it.

I'm sure some really religious person thinks I'm going to Hell, but since there is no Hell unless we're all going to it then I don't care. I use this potentially fake power to help myself when I need it. I honestly believe in a God, I think this being may not be as just as some would like to believe but nobody really knows. For faith, just look at the world around you, see that something has been created, and allow some wonderment into your life. Sure, science slowly explains everything, but who ever said there hasn't been a guiding hand to it all?

That's all. Have a good day.

------------------------
"You have just destroyed one model XQJ-37 nuclear powered pansexual
roto-plooker....and you're gonna have to pay for it."
-Frank Zappa

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Aug 2000
Location:
Posts: 3539

Funny thing about Hell, It would have to be a lot like life here on earth. Enough pleasure to let you feel the pain, enough beauty to let you see the ugly, enough love to let us know hate. Any constant becomes unrecognizable if we have nothing to compare it to. Constant agony? Impossible. Constant happiness? Impossible.
Shit you can almost look around the world and see the seven spheres of hell in action.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Oct 2000
Location: Illinois
Posts: 1217

Everyone is so worried about being UN-PC that they fail to realize this is a religious discussion. SOMEONE WILL GET PISSED OFF, SO DON"T BEAT AROUND THE BUSH.

You want to believe in something grand, something higher, something omnipotent. That is fucking spectacular.

As a philosopher you have the distinct trouble of finding any one faith to be 'true'. I honestly sympathize.

So my answer? All gods are one god. Ride the fence. Pick and choose what you like about existing faiths and believe that they all came from one happy She-God. You may feel lack of dedication, but you shouldn't be too terribly wrong in any one persons eyes.

Your only other option is to pick any faith you want, believe in it soley and follow it fully, giving your mind, your life, your very soul the dedication of faith. That is noble and often overlooked as true faith in this day and age.

In conclusion faith=devoute dedication to a series of beliefs. Give yourself up to one, or ride the line and love them all!

------------------------
E=Insane˛

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Minneapolis, MN
Posts: 10361

Nutrimentia pretty much hit how i feel on the head.

Last week some people (dont remember what they call themselves) knocked on my door with the intent of converting me and saving my soul. I was very tempted to bitch em out but i just shut the door. After i thought about it a bit it pissed me off even more, how dare they come to my house to tell me my faith isnt strong enough, what the hell do they know? why isn't having theyre own faith good enough for them? those people do their cause more harm than good. I'll live and let live, if you want to worship an imaginary superbeing thats fine by me, but dont try to force your views on me.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: A New England
Posts: 9187

I find people who let someone else accept responsibility for their own sins so that they might have an eternal life distinctly 'unchristian'.

How does a Christian bring these things into balance?

Does this make the sacrifice Jesus made mean everyone that accepts this sacrifice as their path to heaven less than the rest of us?

The irony is hurting me now.

I need to go relieve myself.


------------------------
A closed mouth gathers no feet.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Jul 2000
Location: Oregon. America.
Posts: 2079

Whatever muffy.

Eat me.

You asked a question and defined the parameters with poorly chosen semantic boundaries. I responded to the "words" that you chose to use to ask your question. Using words like "we" when refering to a hypothetical philisophical group and than following it up with "know" which, as you've indicated in your later response, you don't claim to know anything.

My response, however, was totally valid within the original verbal constraints that you provided.

And no, I'm not full of myself. My opinion means nothing to me, and if you can provide another more interesting one than I'll happily glide into it.

You don't know me muffy save from that which you have read, so don't ever fucking assume so personal a qualification about me. Arrogance? Eat my fucking dick you pedantic fuck.

I don't have time to be arrogant, and neither do you. No one needs to be arrogant, because arrogance is a faith, a faith in the self that is based upon the fear of being admonished for how you feel.

Bullies have small dicks, and beat up little kids to prove they're all that and a bag of shit.

Anyway, I still think that this is a good topic, and perhaps you ought to respond to that martin buber shit if you want to have an actual conversation. I don't believe in anything, although I can certainly play a devil in a dress.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Sep 2000
Location: Elysian Fields, TX, USA
Posts: 2618

God and I have an agreement....He leaves me alone, and I stop going to church naked.

------------------------
You have the potential to be a loser. GO FOR IT!

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Florida
Posts: 316

I'm an atheist.

Here's my hypothesis:

EVERY religion that involves worship of some kind of "higher power" is derived from worshipping the sun. Think about it. The sun is the first thing that humans worshipped. It has always been there; it is a constant. Before humans even had a way of communicating with each other, they ALL worshipped it. The sun was the first "God".

Throughout time, man had developed different forms of worship that they could more identify with. Something that was more like themselves. This "new" kind of worship resulted in man praising a human and even animals, anything that they could better relate to than the big ball of light (the sun).

They documented their beliefs in different ways. As their communication evolved, paintings and various forms of sign language soon took shape in written form, aka Bible's etc.. These bodies of literature were interpretted individually, following the churches agenda, not to mention the political agendas of the times, until the invention of the printing press in the mid 1400's.

Throughout the years politics played a major part in how these writings/Bible's were transcribed. Here's an example: Back in the 1500's, when Queen Elizabeth was the monarch of England, the church desperately wanted her out of rule, they declared that it was "God's will" that the Queen be murdered, and that anyone who did so, would have a gauranteed spot in heaven.

It wasn't until the 1900's, that science eventually caught up with religion and created opposing views. Sure there were scientists and mathematicians before the 1900's, but they always had to obide by the churches beliefs. Any discrepancy between the church and the scientist's views would quickly result in the scientist being discredited, banished, and even worse.

That's the way I see religion. Whether my views are right or wrong is irrelavent. It's your personal view that matters. If believing in a "higher power" makes you a better person, more power to you. Just don't expect me to agree, as I wouldn't expect you to agree with my views.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: Gehenna
Posts: 1018

Cool thread. I'm tempted to jump in here and stir the shit between Muffy and Feral, but I'm afraid that I can't be impartial, as I am the High Priest of the faith known as Inveterate, Itinerant Muffyism.

The hardest part about Muffyism is that one never knows whether jumping in will result in pleasing the Goddess Muffy for defending her or anger the Almighty Muffy for sticking ones nose in where it doesn't belong. It keeps life interesting.

I highly reccommend Muffyism to those of you who lack any other faith. It's fun, it doesn't cost anything, and there's always the irony of viewing first hand your Deity's Existential Despair.

------------------------
What you would kill to see brings out the GOD in me.

Report this post to a moderator | IP: Logged